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  1. nightowl is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/14/2009 9:29pm


     Style: Koryu Budo, Shooto

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think that the thing we need to consider is; if an Akido school regularly engaged in full contact sparring with the intent of becoming proficient,

    they would lose most of their traditional techniques for techniques from Freestyle/Greco Roman wrestling, Judo and BJJ.
    Pre-war Aikido (which is generally considered the more practical age of the art) was more or less Daito ryu aikijujutsu and thus not as flowery. Also consider some of his famous early students who branched off from his school: Gozo Shioda , Kenji Tomiki, and Minoru Mochizuki. All of them were proficient at Judo (and other arts) and Ueshiba's Daito-ryu was not their sole source of martial knowledge.

    They all had done 'alive' training in jujutsu, and Ueshiba's Daito-ryu was an enhancement to their overall knowledge and skill. These were experienced martial artists who already had a good grappling base. Aikido alone wasn't their only trick in their bag but an extra tool. And yes, if you take it as such and add it to what you know it can be used in an alive environment. Roy Dean is probably one of the better examples of this I can think of (black belt in Aikido and BJJ), but I have personally seen and been able to use some aikido/aikijujutsu moves while rolling in bjj. They are not what I go to first, but knowing how to do kotegaeshi for example has been a neat supplement to my established base grappling styles that every now and then takes someone off guard.

    Only practicing aikido moves in resistance training isn't going to make you into a well rounded grappler for the most part, but if you already are doing a more well rounded style it can be of benefit just like it was to Ueshiba's early students.
  2. DCS is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/15/2009 8:49pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: 柔道

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Zendokan View Post
    I'm not seeing the pattern, unless you were saying that:
    1) full-resistant Aikido would look like Sumo and thus loosing it's identity
    Not saying that.

    or
    2) pre-war Aikido was badass because they could stand there ground against sumo-players.
    Wasn't saying that also.

    So about 1 =
    The core business of Martial Arts is fighting, nothing more and nothing less. You want to become a better person, join a church, foodrally, red cross volunteers, whatever...but not a dojo.
    No problem.


    Just like all things on this planet, Martial Arts need to evolve and adapt themself to the present day.
    Martial Arts that stay "traditional" as in doing things the same way as 200 years ago because it worked than, but it doesn't work now, are extinct Martial Arts (even if they have 10 000 000 practiseners) because they have lost their purpose. The purpose is combat (self-defense or sport or both).
    Interesting, but we're not looking at an art 200 years old but at one younger than Judo or even BJJ.


    About 2 =
    Between pre-war badass Aikido and post-war new-age Aikido there lays the "cult of shining light" (or whatever it was called) that O'Sensei became a follower off.
    Ueshiba joined Omoto kyo in 1920 and the cult was disbanded by japanese government in 1935. Tell me how Omoto kyo doctrine pussyfied aikido considering the years of Ueshiba involvement with said sect were the ones of highest badassery and teaching combatives in japanese military academies until 1942.

    Aikido (and Hapkido) are "traditional" in the meaning that the techniques haven't been adapted to present time. Or do you think that alot of people attack you with a hammerfist? And if you don't see the relevance of this statement, imagen a Katana in that hammerfist.
    It seems the concept of angles of attack is unknown to you or you've found the inherent flaws in filipino, european and japanese fencing methods of inter-relating weapons and empty hand.

    That and forgetting all about other usual aikido attacks like grabbing (collar, chest, shoulder, elbow, sleeve, wrist; solo or in combination with strikes) from the front and back, bear hugging, rear choking, kicking... outdated attacks? What do you use there, phasers, blasters, lasers, tentacles, 720 spinning back kicks? We lack that technology down here.

    Everytime I read that pre-war Aikido was badass and that when O'Sensei became a follower of the cult he removed all the dangerous, combat techniques from Aikido to create a Movement Art (post-war new age Aikido) that would make you a better person.
    Stop reading ****.

    The question that I was asking, because I didn't understand, was why DCS brought Takeda and DRAJJ into the discussion when we were talking about Aikido.
    But the judo guy is smarter than you.

    Quote Originally Posted by nightowl
    They all had done 'alive' training in jujutsu, and Ueshiba's Daito-ryu was an enhancement to their overall knowledge and skill. These were experienced martial artists who already had a good grappling base. Aikido alone wasn't their only trick in their bag but an extra tool. And yes, if you take it as such and add it to what you know it can be used in an alive environment.
    Ippon.

    Takeda and Ueshiba had a delivery system (Sumo, Judo, military combatives, classical kenjutsu & jujutsu...), their pre-war students had a delivery system (Sumo, Judo, Kendo, classical kenjutsu & jujutsu), some of their post-war students had a a delivery system or crosstrained, 60's hippies, well... that's another different story.

    1956


    1970
  3. 1point2 is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/15/2009 9:09pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: 剛 and 柔

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DCS View Post
    1956


    1970
    Thanks. Message received.
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  4. nightowl is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/16/2009 2:45am


     Style: Koryu Budo, Shooto

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    DCS,

    Other than Shoot Aikido or this group, I haven't seen any free sparring in an aikijujutsu based style other than with a tanto (outside of a few rare clips of tonshu randori sparring like this: one

    (and even with the unarmed grappling those two guys never manage to do much to each other in the end ). While tanto fighting is alive, it doesn't seem to take into account the slicing potential of the weapon and thus doesn't impress me as much. I still stand by what I said about using Aikido/daito ryu with an established grappling base (like Ueshiba's early students), but I am going to go with Maofas on this one and say that these guys are at least stepping in the right direction and with encouragement and guidance could be better than tomoki ryu for example. Can you provide a better organization that engages in free (non-tanto) sparring? I'm not trying to post a challenge, I am legitimately curious as I have a soft spot for JJJ techniques like in Daito Ryu (Gyakudasuki for the win).
  5. Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/16/2009 5:26am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Savate (LBF/SD/LC) - BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DCS View Post
    Not saying that.


    Wasn't saying that also.


    No problem.



    Interesting, but we're not looking at an art 200 years old but at one younger than Judo or even BJJ.




    Ueshiba joined Omoto kyo in 1920 and the cult was disbanded by japanese government in 1935. Tell me how Omoto kyo doctrine pussyfied aikido considering the years of Ueshiba involvement with said sect were the ones of highest badassery and teaching combatives in japanese military academies until 1942.



    It seems the concept of angles of attack is unknown to you or you've found the inherent flaws in filipino, european and japanese fencing methods of inter-relating weapons and empty hand.

    That and forgetting all about other usual aikido attacks like grabbing (collar, chest, shoulder, elbow, sleeve, wrist; solo or in combination with strikes) from the front and back, bear hugging, rear choking, kicking... outdated attacks? What do you use there, phasers, blasters, lasers, tentacles, 720 spinning back kicks? We lack that technology down here.


    Stop reading ****.



    But the judo guy is smarter than you.



    Ippon.

    Takeda and Ueshiba had a delivery system (Sumo, Judo, military combatives, classical kenjutsu & jujutsu...), their pre-war students had a delivery system (Sumo, Judo, Kendo, classical kenjutsu & jujutsu), some of their post-war students had a a delivery system or crosstrained, 60's hippies, well... that's another different story.

    1956


    1970

    1) So wait, when I'm saying that the techniques of Aikido should be injected in an "high combat art" or at least that Aikidoka should crosstrain in an effective alive martial art, it isn't good.
    But now you claim that all the good Aikidoka already had a delivery system from an effective Martial Art.

    2) Hammerfist is a weapon attack, not an empty hand attack. Yet in every demo it's hammerfist, not jab-cross.

    About the "grabbing (collar, chest, shoulder, elbow, sleeve, wrist; solo or in combination with strikes) from the front and back, bear hugging, rear choking, kicking... ", sure that they aren't the "Judo-versions" that were used by the legendary Aikidoka in combat since they were most of the time Judoka?

    3) So now the Omoto kyo cult didn't pussyfied Aikido, it were the hippies. OK, got that.

    4) about phasers...you've got the Darth Vader avatar. I'm more into chainsaws and hockeymasks. That technology is available in Spain.

    --> So Aikido works if you are a Judoka, Karateka or sumoka but not an Aikidoka.

    *unsubscribes from this thread*
    Quote Originally Posted by Jiujitsu77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Humanzee
    ...your books on Kama Sutra and BJJ are interchangeable.
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  6. DCS is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/16/2009 7:28am

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     Style: 柔道

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by nightowl View Post
    Can you provide a better organization that engages in free (non-tanto) sparring? I'm not trying to post a challenge, I am legitimately curious as I have a soft spot for JJJ techniques like in Daito Ryu (Gyakudasuki for the win).
    I don't know any big organization that allows full contact lock'n throw aikido style.

    Yoseikan, the style founded by Mochizuki, allows them in light contact sparring but not in full contact shiai.

    YouTube- yoseikan

    In small orgs or independent clubs there are some not formalised sparring methods like in the case of this bullshido member:
    YouTube- Aikido Randori with resistance

    Mostly is up to the individual making his aikido effective.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zendokan
    So Aikido works if you are a Judoka, Karateka or sumoka but not an Aikidoka
    Aikido works if you're a fighter (how you become one is up to you), if you are not a fighter then aikido is not going to work.
  7. maofas is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/16/2009 8:15am

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     Style: Kenkojuku Karate, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    IMO Vee Arnis Jujitsu is a bit like Hapkido you keep referring to. I knew two students of Prof. Vee's, tough older guys who also trained up into legit shotokan bbs & did lots of med and some hard continuous sparring. Vee-jitsu itself (which they worked into their Karate classes when teaching) seemed to have a lot of live drills and compliant JJJish gimicky lock stuff, which I never saw them use in sparring, but I cant at least say: we would have a mixed bb class 1x per month for 2 hours, and the karate guys would always **** with them when they demoed the technique we were going to practice by resisting all out and trying to escape. They could almost always still put it on us or flow into something else, and make us dance into various lock after painful lock afterwards as punishment for fucking with the demo.

    One of them was really short and had great takedown defense, I can't wait to try to osoto or uchi mata him (in a friendly manner, I miss them) this X-mas. I haven't seen him in the (almost 2 years) I've been doing Judo.
    Last edited by maofas; 11/16/2009 8:20am at .
  8. maofas is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/16/2009 8:32am

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     Style: Kenkojuku Karate, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Oh, and not like the Hatenkai people need to listen to me, but this is what I personally would do differently.

    I think Kyokushin is awesome, but if you're going to apply locks that are gimicky and rely on quickness and purity of technique you need headshots to scramble people's sense for insta-kazushi to apply the lock, and should spar under a different ruleset. They should add SuperSafe Heagear (aka Space Helmets), 8 oz training gloves, and go at it with headshots. Mix in a little Judo too, just the pins and some standing grip fighting. Keep it focused on Aikido type moves though, don't turn it into Judo (I know there will be overlap though, that's normal/fine), because people can already do Judo.

    Now, some of their sparring is very full-mat and controlled by the instructor calling the stops. Use that method for the hard sparring. It's easier to call a stop when someone gets nailed and let people recover so you don't injure each other. The several pairs going at it at once should be med, and for beginners light, contact round-robin sparring, 3 min rounds, 1 min inbetween, go around the class for 30 mins. People have to go (progressively more) with the flow more on locks in med and hard sparring, because you have to kinda headshot someone to scramble them, and then slap it on fast. It's better to be easy with that on your joints, fight more for position to apply in med/light contact, and keep the hard applications of the locks for full mat and supervised sparring with instructor watching.

    Also, wear knee pads if you want to seriously spar with knees to the head, I don't know what's wrong with people. I'm like the only one who does it and people are occasionally lucky I do.
    Last edited by maofas; 11/16/2009 8:41am at .
  9. Dark Fire is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/16/2009 9:10am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by nightowl View Post
    (and even with the unarmed grappling those two guys never manage to do much to each other in the end ). While tanto fighting is alive, it doesn't seem to take into account the slicing potential of the weapon and thus doesn't impress me as much. I still stand by what I said about using Aikido/daito ryu with an established grappling base (like Ueshiba's early students), but I am going to go with Maofas on this one and say that these guys are at least stepping in the right direction and with encouragement and guidance could be better than tomoki ryu for example. Can you provide a better organization that engages in free (non-tanto) sparring? I'm not trying to post a challenge, I am legitimately curious as I have a soft spot for JJJ techniques like in Daito Ryu (Gyakudasuki for the win).
    I'm sorry if I was misinterpreting what you are saying, but Tomiki Aikido does toshu randori as well. Nothing really happens though when two people are doing it. It looks like sloppy Judo and perhaps sloppy wrestling.

    Also there is some developments in the world of USA Tomiki Aikido. The USA has officially withdrawn from the JAA and we are our own little organization now. Since that happened people are thinking of changing the rules a bit. I think the guys on ohio wanna put gloves on and use punches for randori instead of the Tanto. I hope they decide to allow sweeps and gi grabbing too. One of the guys who wants to put gloves on name is Bob King or something like that.
  10. DCS is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/16/2009 10:04am

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     Style: 柔道

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Fire View Post
    One of the guys who wants to put gloves on name is Bob King or something like that.
    Bob King and Jeff Davidson work has been discussed before.
    Full contact Aikido and aiki boxing 3 - No BS MMA and Martial Arts
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