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  1. krsd is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/25/2009 1:58pm


     Style: Kungfu

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Tanuki View Post
    Which page has that goofy picture of John Painter on it dressed in Serbian BDUs?
    :pool:
    The cover, p9, p41, and p216 have him wearing what I would consider winter clothing, but I didn't see anything in there that was camouflage, or looked like BDU's more than that.

    Another interesting set of photos are on p118 where Frank Allen is without a shirt and you can see the massive amount of ink on his body.
  2. krsd is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/25/2009 2:02pm


     Style: Kungfu

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Rusher View Post
    ... is a good book, though it -- like almost every such history -- ignores the tremendous influence of historical forms of shuaijiao on the development of Chinese boxing systems.
    Very true, I did see a few passing mentions of it, but that was about it. What I did find interesting to see addressed, that often isn't, is the contradictory nature of the Buddhist ethos against killing and how that may have been reconciled with the training in martial arts. Interestingly including a evolution of a Hindu god into a different Buddhist god over time and how eventually he was depicted holding the staff.

    Often the focus of a lot of books is on either the martial or the religious and not both. While this book did make some attempt of addressing both, I would say it addressed the religious side of things more.
    Last edited by krsd; 11/25/2009 2:07pm at .
  3. Mr.Tanuki is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/25/2009 6:50pm

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     Style: CMA and JMA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by krsd View Post
    The cover, p9, p41, and p216 have him wearing what I would consider winter clothing, but I didn't see anything in there that was camouflage, or looked like BDU's more than that.

    Another interesting set of photos are on p118 where Frank Allen is without a shirt and you can see the massive amount of ink on his body.

    I have this book on the martial arts and it's got a section on Bagua Zhang. The first picture you see is of Painter in his BDU's and sunglasses on. It was a laugh riot. I don't know anything about his skills, but I do know this is alot of controversy surronding him and his position in the martial arts. Especially the Chinese martial arts.

    Frank Allen though, I have to say, has been a fairly helpful man in the western world with the internal Chinese martial arts.
  4. krsd is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/26/2009 12:27am


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    Ah, my mistake I was thinking you meant the wrong book. As I mentioned in the original post I lent out the book on the Shaolin Temple to my instructor so don't have it handy presently.
  5. Mr.Tanuki is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/26/2009 7:22am

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     Style: CMA and JMA

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    Quote Originally Posted by krsd View Post
    Ah, my mistake I was thinking you meant the wrong book. As I mentioned in the original post I lent out the book on the Shaolin Temple to my instructor so don't have it handy presently.
    No worries:icon_bigg
    I think it's good that there are more people like yourself who are reading and studying things on the Shaolin temple. Many people try to change or add these farcical tales about the Shaolin monks and the temple that even the monks are shaking their heads.
    If you are into reading about Shaolin and chinese stories, I'd say pick up a copy of Water Margin (Shuǐhǔ Zhun) and also known as All Men Are Brothers. It's actually really good and some of the characters in it are ex-monks. It's fiction , but it's one of the classics of Chinese literurature.
  6. krsd is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/27/2009 7:14pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Tanuki View Post
    No worries:icon_bigg
    I think it's good that there are more people like yourself who are reading and studying things on the Shaolin temple. Many people try to change or add these farcical tales about the Shaolin monks and the temple that even the monks are shaking their heads.
    It is the desire to separate truth from fiction that has definitely been a motivation. I have little doubt that at least a large portion of what I have been told previously was, if not outright fiction, at the very least highly circumspect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Tanuki View Post
    If you are into reading about Shaolin and chinese stories, I'd say pick up a copy of Water Margin (Shuh Zhun) and also known as All Men Are Brothers. It's actually really good and some of the characters in it are ex-monks. It's fiction , but it's one of the classics of Chinese literurature.
    I have a hardcover three volume set from the Beijing Press, and am on the last volume, though it has been a while since I have picked it up.
  7. Sri Hanuman is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/24/2010 2:05pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Cheng Man Ching Taijiquan

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    My apologies for the necro, but I found this article which essentially repeats a similar arguement to mine, i.e. Zheng Sanfeng used in Epitaph of Wang Cheng Nan as allegory, is not to be taken literally.

    This article offers various citations, and leads to follow for anyone that would wish to follow up.

    http://www.nardis.com/~twchan/henning.html
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  8. Sri Hanuman is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/12/2010 1:03pm

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     Style: Cheng Man Ching Taijiquan

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    Another (not-so) brief update.

    I know I threatened to give this it's own thread, but as of now I am still reading and researching. If I had known the sheer fucking volume of historical and non-martial sources of information available on the topic, maybe I would have thought twice.

    Just to give you some idea, well over half of the books on the topic exceed $50. The most expensive one that I just got (also the most thorough and academic,) costing me within the ball park of $250. This excludes the Taoist Encyclopedia, Vol 1. which runs about $300, and a rough translated copy of the Taoist Canon (which I just can't justify getting no matter how helpful or awesome,) which will run about $500. Unfortunately most libraries don't carry the books I need, so I had to sell a large part of my personal library to get my paws on these.

    All of these contain verified historically significant information that pretty much asserts my position that Zheng Sanfeng link to pretty much everything after the fall of the Ming is embellishment at best, and blatant bullshitting and sectarean revisionism at it's worst. (Or maybe cultism, there has been plenty of that right before, during, and after China's Early to Mid Republican Period ~1912-1928.)

    I am finding a strong movement spanning several centuries, that I now commonly refer to as Zheng San Feng invent everything movement. **** you Korea.

    Just to give you some idea of my current reading list:

    -Pretty much everything ever written by Douglas Wile, re-read, still re-reading

    -Livia Kohn (a wonderful scholarly author and researcher. Can't recommend her enough for all things Chinese history,) Early Chinese Mysticism

    -Daoism Handbook, Livia Kohn

    -Lord of the Three in One: Spread of a Cult in South East China,
    Kenneth Dean (a great example of Zheng Sanfeng Invent Everything movement, and a perfect example of how rampant and widespread Zheng Sanfeng worship was in the Ming and onward)

    -Investigations into the authenticity of the Chang San-feng ch'uan-chi, the complete works of Chang San-feng, Wong Shiu Hon (this is the one that cost $250)

    -Tai Chi Chuan, Harmonizing Taoist Beliefs and Practice, Jeaneane D. Fowler, and "Shifu" Keith Ewers (probably the one exception I made to my non martial sources position, mainly due to Fowler. Her work is some of the best and clearest on the subject of Taoist history.)

    -Encyclopedia of Taoism, Vol 1, Fabrizio Pregadio (brings tears to my eyes... because it's so fucking expensive... )

    -Religion and Chinese Society, John Lagerway

    -Taoism and Indegnious Chinese Religion, Feng Liu, Zengcai An

    -East Asia: A Cultural, Social, and Political History, Patricia Ebrev, James Palais

    -Firearms: A Global History, Kenneth Warren Chase (mostly because it gave a concise overview of Emperor Yongle and his various campaigns, relevant in giving overview of political climate of his rule, and necesity for unification of religion and philosophy, which is where Taoism and Zheng San Feng came in. Also the reason you will see Buddhism, Taoism, and Confucianism begin to coalesce during and after this time period.)

    -Illustrated Encyclopedia of Confucianism, Vol 1, Taylor, Fung Choy
    (probably the only one I didn't have to buy, it only had several pages of useful information on Huang Tsung-hsi, the guy who is responsible for the epitaph of Wang Cheng Nan, the first historical instance of liking Zheng Sanfeng and Taijiquan, late in the 1600s.)

    -Dictionary of Ming Biography, 1368-1644 A-L, N-Z, Vol 1-2, Association for Asian Studies, Ann Arbor, Michigan
    (Had to look up some obscure names for reference, this was one of the better sources for Liang Ying, one of the earlier available authors, and the only one who actually saw Zheng San Feng in person. His writing, BTW, is an official Ming court record, which by every definition is a legitimate legal document. This was one of my better leads.)

    There are several others, but the information they contain is marginal, and they are not worth mentioning. I'm thinking by the time I finish this, I will have the equivalent of a college dissertation or a book. If book, I'm hoping to sell it, and get back some of the $$$ I spent on this project. At worst, just enough to drink myself into sweet oblivion to drown out the PTSD that was brought on by reading all this crap.

    If anybody has any questions, I'll be happy to answer them to the best of my ability. Now I'm off to read and take notes (while looking like I'm doing official work stuff.) May the merciful wrath of Buddha not smite you too painfully.
    Last edited by Sri Hanuman; 4/12/2010 1:15pm at .
    =================
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  9. Truth42 is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/15/2010 8:20am

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     Style: Taijiquan

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sri Hanuman View Post
    Another (not-so) brief update.

    I know I threatened to give this it's own thread, but as of now I am still reading and researching. If I had known the sheer fucking volume of historical and non-martial sources of information available on the topic, maybe I would have thought twice.

    [....].

    I'm just curious do you have any of Eva Wong's translations in your reading list?
  10. Sri Hanuman is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/15/2010 9:33am

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     Style: Cheng Man Ching Taijiquan

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    There are a few.

    -Shambala Guide to Taoism (as well as Paul Wildish's condensed version)
    -Teachings of the Tao
    -Tales of the Taoist Immortals
    -Seven Taoist Masters: A Folk Novel of China

    I have almost every book she ever wrote on Taoist Alchemy. When it comes to translating obscure esoteric alchemical treatises (the worst of which ABSOLUTELY has to be Harmonizing Yin and Yang: Dragon Tiger Classics- it's almost a mine field of obscure terminology thats a euphamism for 2 more potential obscure terminologies) Wong mentions her source and general history.

    However, with Wong, when it comes to famous Taoists, more often than not she tends to recite popular legends without citing sources, since I believe she mosly focuses on preserving folk traditions. While I do consider her a legitimate source and respect her as an author who is attempting to preserve significant elements of her culture, for the matter of Zhang San Feng I prefer more academic sources, simply because their information can be clearly traced and verified. Wong herself never really cross-examines anything she translates or retells (at least on what I've read through.)
    Last edited by Sri Hanuman; 4/15/2010 9:46am at .
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