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  1. kaoru666 is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/16/2009 1:11pm


     Style: jujutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    like mortal combat and the lin kuei
  2. Sri Hanuman is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/16/2009 1:34pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Cheng Man Ching Taijiquan

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I was thinking more along the lines of Wong Kiew Kit and Sin The.
    =================
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  3. Mr.Tanuki is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/16/2009 10:52pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: CMA and JMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I travel to China every year for about a week and a half to two weeks (depending on my vacation time) to train. It's not very expensive for me as I live and work in Japan.
    To tell the truth, to me there are not many "real" Shaolin temples left. But I do travel to visit the temple in Henan. This claim about burning their arms is fabricated.
    What I think you all are looking for are the "ordained" tattoo of monks. The ordained symbol is six small incense burns upon the forehead. This, however, means the monk is ordained and will not hurt anyone, regardless of what is happening to him. They are strictly priests. A warrior monk will not ordain his head this way. He will simply shave his head, which is Buddhist practice. Even here in Japan, the O-bosan shave their heads.
  4. Sri Hanuman is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/16/2009 10:55pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Cheng Man Ching Taijiquan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sounds about right. There was even talk that a vast majority of the current shaolin temples are reinactors and former military who put on a show for the tourists.
    =================
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  5. Mr.Tanuki is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/17/2009 12:18am

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     Style: CMA and JMA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Humanzee View Post
    Sounds about right. There was even talk that a vast majority of the current shaolin temples are reinactors and former military who put on a show for the tourists.
    Hell, you wouldn't believe how many "authentic" shaolin quan schools there are all over China. I'm serious, it's a money making scam. They don't train at the temple at all. They go to day camps that are hosted inside sports arenas. They lie and the lies have big fekkin' bells hanging of em'.
    I saw this with my own eyes. These camps have the people get up early in the morning and run. Then they warm up and after that, they sing the Chinese national anthem while raising the flag. It's like boot camp with a smiling monk doing a flying kick at you on a poster. Most of the people there are young boys in track suits who go there because "they want to get into movies". Nothing to do with Shaolin or Buddhism. Strictly commercialism.
    They don't teach the Yi Jin Jing or any aspects of training the monks go through.
    The real monks are very quiet and most of them whom I've met are old. When I say old, I mean they should have taken a dirt nap ten years ago.
    They do, however, hold training grounds OUTSIDE of the temple. This is for the monks and the monks only. They don't have any fancy costumes or leather arm guards (they are strict Buddhist, remember?).
    The training is slowly done and ever bit of it is "primitive" as one could say. That means there are no punching bags. No gloves. They punch newspaper taped to a wall for hours on end. I'm not joking.
    They don't tour the country either. They usually stop into town to ask for alms and to buy things for the temple. For them, I believe, the most important thing in their life is not martial arts. It's their religion and most of all, their temple.
    Last edited by Mr.Tanuki; 11/17/2009 12:27am at .
  6. Sri Hanuman is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/17/2009 7:57am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Cheng Man Ching Taijiquan

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sad state of affairs.
    I wonder if there's a way to make a donation to the monks directly, without the govt. sponsored coreographers getting a cut.
    =================
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  7. Sri Hanuman is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/17/2009 9:30am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Cheng Man Ching Taijiquan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That makes me wonder, how much of it is the same with Wudang? There's been a recent surge in various "Wudang arts" dvds, with all manner of esoteric Taoist training that was supposed to have been purged during the Cultural Revolution as well.

    And yet, we see all these elaborate rituals and martial arts that could not have possibly been preserved in their country of origin given what we know. Worse yet, they try to claim Zheng Sanfeng lineage, wich in itself, at least IMO deserves it's own BS thread.
    Last edited by Sri Hanuman; 11/17/2009 9:34am at .
    =================
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    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas View Post
    I used to **** guys like you in prison.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rock Ape View Post
    Dude I kill people for a fucking living.

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  8. Mr.Tanuki is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/17/2009 9:45am

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     Style: CMA and JMA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Humanzee View Post
    That makes me wonder, how much of it is the same with Wudang? There's been a recent surge in various "Wudang arts" dvds, with all manner of esoteric Taoist training that was supposed to have been purged during the Cultural Revolution as well.

    And yet, we see all these elaborate rituals and martial arts that could not have possibly been preserved in their country of origin given what we know. Worse yet, they try to claim Zheng Sanfeng lineage, wich in itself, at least IMO deserves it's own thread.

    That's a good question. I'd have to give a big "I don't know" to that question. I mean, the Cultural Revolution demolished and stripped a lot from the Chinese culture. But, as we've seen through history, the Chinese have a way of keeping things they hold dear to them during war, enslavement, and revolution. It might be possible that some of the monks went into hiding or moved to remote areas.
    Revolution, no matter how big, can't wipe out everything, right?
    But it does set the stage, as you pointed out, for a lot of possible scams to be had. What better way to capitalize on your business than to follow a tragic/unfortunate event?
    I think that saying they come from Zheng Sanfeng, a legend in itself, is rather dubious. However, that's just my opinion.
    What do you think?
  9. vesuviuz is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/17/2009 10:03am

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     Style: baboon

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There are still (few) survivors of the cultural revolution and what happened then in the Shaolin Temple. One of them is the venerable Shi Wan Heng who is now in his 90s.

    His story as far as I know is that when he was a child he was put into the temple, and short time later china was in political upheaval and the army used various buddhist temples, including the shaolin temple as target practice after being "officialy" disbanded by the governments. I am not sure on the timelines of all of this and some research would be required.

    The shaolin tradition survived but at some point was taken over by the communist government. The final act of destruction was the appointment of the Abbot by the government, going against all tradition which required the abbot to be chosen by a council of the elder monks.

    As far as what is true about shaolin, I would not trust ANYTHING that has come out of the media or "offical" temple information. It is now sadly more of a tourist trap and social moral issue for the chinese then a buddhist temple.

    The fact is that the shaolin temple was a buddhist temple first and foremost, and now has hardly anything to do with Chan Buddhism and true shaolin kungfu is almost all but lost, replaced by modern competition Wushu and Beijing Opera theatrics.
  10. Sri Hanuman is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/17/2009 10:40am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Cheng Man Ching Taijiquan

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Tanuki View Post
    I think that saying they come from Zheng Sanfeng, a legend in itself, is rather dubious. However, that's just my opinion.
    What do you think?
    Sorry for the long winded response. I was actually thinking on doing a separate thread on Zheng, and why anyone claiming MA lineage from him are either full of BS, are deluded, or are following BS claims fed to them by their instructor.

    Since the question came up, I'll post it here, but will move it if requested.

    As Douglas Wile and Dan Docherty pointed out, there are no realistic connections between Zheng Sanfeng and martial arts with the exception of the Epitath of Wang Cheng Nan, and that in itself was in the late 1600s, over 400 years after Zheng's supposed lifetime, and was most likely intended as political anti-Manchu, anti-Western political propaganda. (Will elaborate in a moment.)

    The first issue is his chronology. According to Dan Docherty's research, Cheng San Feng was said to live in the Ming Dynasty between the Yen Yu Period (1314- 20) to Yung Lo ( 1419.) Won Shiu-hon places Zheng's birthday on 1247C.E. In 1431C.E., he is mentioned by Ren Ziuan in the Annals of Supreme Summit of Mt. Wudang, as having taught during the Hung Wu period (1368-98.) Neither mention him as a martial art instructor, only a Taoist.

    Secondly, the name of Zheng Sanfeng presents a problem. According to Docherty, Zheng Sanfeng, depending on the writing, could have either been Zheng of the Three Sacrificial Altars, Zheng of the Three Abundances, or Zheng of the three Mountains. Various epitaths dedicated to the Immortal, have his names written differently. We are either dealing with three different people with a similar name, or we are (similarly to Lao Tzu) attributing the actions of various people to one mythological being (which is the least likely possibility, due to some records pointing to the existence of a Zheng Sanfeng.) Still, which Zheng do the lineage claimers draw their lineage from? Neither of the aforementioned are said to be martial artists, merely Taoists.

    Now we get to the epitaph which so many use as a justification for Zheng being touted as the founder of Neijia, internal MA. First and foremost, Douglas Wile did an amazing volume of research on this matter, mainly as it relates to Taijiquan. I strongly recommend his Lost Tai Chi Classics from the Late Ch'ing Dynasty, and T'ai Ch'i's Ancestors. Both books show incredible in-depth research, and reference to the newspaper clippings and written surveys, records, and documents available during that time period. He cross-examines lineage claims and stories in light of the available material, and compares it to the political climate of the times, successfully casting serious doubt on many such claims.

    Lineages like Yang, Wu, and Zhaobao, as well as all their offshoots, claim Zheng Sanfeng >Wang Zhongyiue (yet another historical black hole, much like Zheng) > Jiang Fa as their lineage.

    In In 1669, almost 400 years after the last date for Zheng’s activities, Huang Zong-xi(Huang Tsung-hsi) wrote an epitaph which depicts Zheng as the founder of Neijia. This was the first written document to connect Zheng to martial arts. Prior to this, he was merely mentioned as a Taoist. (Most mentions of Zheng as a martial artist began popping up at later dates, citing this epitaph as a source.) When taken out of its historical and political context, such claims can be seen as a rational, if a little dubious. However, when analyzed closer, we see that the epitaph itself may not be as literal in its meaning as some would choose to believe.

    To better understand the reasoning behind the epitaph, we should understand the political background of the time and region in which it was written. (Mind you, the following is a gross oversimplification.) During the late Ching Dynasty, China was facing a crisis. The Yung Nien county at the intersection of Hebei (河北, location of Yongnian, home of Yang Luchan) and Henan (河南,location of Chen Village) provinces was trapped between the influences of local peasant rebels, and the Manchu government (seen as an occupying force, desperate to maintain power.) Unable to relate to or support either side, the residents faced yet another more general problem: the overwhelming influence of Western culture, and the impact it was having on Chinese culture and economy.

    It was during this time that the Yung Nien gazette published Huang Tsung-hsi’s epitaph of Wang Cheng-nen, (a 17th century folk hero who resisted the Manchu occupation and became a vegetarian as a sign of his devotion to the cause,) depicting the man as an anti-Manchu hero to be emulated. Again, I point out the significance due to the fact that the epitaph attributes the development of “Internal” arts to a Cheng Sanfeng for the first time.

    When analyzed within the context of political background and current events in which it was printed (taking into account that Huang was not a superstitious man who believed in legends,) Douglas Wile points to this epitaph as a political allegory, depicting Cheng as the face of the Chinese people, a rallying point, a champion of Chinese traditions and values, the “internal” vs. “external” a metaphor for the Chinese nationalists vs. the Manchu occupation and the invading West, the “hundred bandits” that Cheng defeated as another reference to the Manchu and the spreading Western influence, a call to arms of sorts.

    Unfortunately, I can not do justice to Douglas Wile’s vast research and Docherty’s way with words, hence I recommend that you read the books for yourselves. Again, the books are: Douglas Wile’s Lost Tai Chi Classics from the Late Ch'ing Dynasty, and T'ai Ch'i's Ancestors, and Dan Docherty’s Complete Tai Chi Chuan.

    I hope this has been helpful.
    Last edited by Sri Hanuman; 11/17/2009 10:47am at .
    =================
    Kama Sutra blue belt.

    Quote Originally Posted by Emevas View Post
    I used to **** guys like you in prison.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rock Ape View Post
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