Traditional Martial Arts and Guard Position

**ReillyHall** · Posted On: 7/29/2009 3:13pm

I apologize if this belongs in a different thread.

Hey people,

In many TMA, you bring your opposite fist back to the hip. Push-and-pull and all that.

Quick question for you: How can you incorporate TMA techniques with a guard position more similar to Muay Thai/boxing?

I don't want to leave my face open to attack, but most TMA schools have a hand down. How do I train in a club without despising my form?

**1point2** · Posted On: 7/29/2009 3:47pm

This will almost certainly get moved to the Basic technique forum.

Pulling a fist to your armpit is a ridiculous perversion of the original Okinawan concept of hikite, which was just the idea of grabbing your opponent while you hit them. Choki Motobu lamented the "chambering" hand position of his contemporaries way back in the 1920's when he wrote his Ryukyu Kempo: Kumite.

The book is here
Amazon.com: Okinawan Kempo (9780920129173): Choki Motobu: Books
But I read Patrick McCarthy's translation with commentary, called Karate-Jutsu: My Art:
http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=399
Can't find it on Amazon; WTF?

If you want to train a boxing guard with hikite, wear MMA gloves and work on grabbing and pulling/jerking your partner's sleeve, wrist, head or body (underhooks, collar ties, and overhooks work well) while you punch or elbow them.

If you want to train a correct hand guard while at a karate/TKD school, well, hold your hands up correctly during sparring....but most likely you're screwed and should just cross-train boxing or Muay Thai.

**8bit** · Posted On: 7/29/2009 4:11pm

Originally Posted by ReillyHall

I apologize if this belongs in a different thread.

Hey people,

In many TMA, you bring your opposite fist back to the hip. Push-and-pull and all that.

Quick question for you: How can you incorporate TMA techniques with a guard position more similar to Muay Thai/boxing?

I don't want to leave my face open to attack, but most TMA schools have a hand down. How do I train in a club without despising my form?

If you are talking about the counterbalancing push pull aspect to create more body torque, you may want to experiment with a bow and arrow position. It produces a similar effect and allows one to keep the hands higher. In my experience, it is easier to get more force out of this posture than from bringing the rear elbow to chambered position.

**maofas** · Posted On: 8/11/2009 9:43pm

I've never been taught anything but [what you would consider to be] a basic put-up-yer-dukes boxing guard that (de?)evolved naturally over time, and I have a fairly traditional background. Except for when I'm trying to bait shots down the center, I don't think my stance looks anything like a MT stance though.

I don't know about hands down being a common practice in TMA. TKD yes, but that's due to their competition ruleset, 51+% of all TMA though? I'm not sure about that.

**honest_truth** · Posted On: 8/11/2009 10:20pm

Originally Posted by maofas

I've never been taught anything but [what you would consider to be] a basic put-up-yer-dukes boxing guard that (de?)evolved naturally over time, and I have a fairly traditional background. Except for when I'm trying to bait shots down the center, I don't think my stance looks anything like a MT stance though.

I don't know about hands down being a common practice in TMA. TKD yes, but that's due to their competition ruleset, 51+% of all TMA though? I'm not sure about that.

styles that usually spar without permitting face punching or engage in tap sparring usually keep their hands low because there is no need to protect the face.

the moment someone puts a little force behind their punches and gets you down the nose bridge, your hands will auto-shoot-up-to-protect-your-face-holy-****-what-the-****-is-this-my-face-hurts-oh-****-another-one-is-com...-stop-stop-stop.

unfortunately many striking based TMA either tap spar or do not allow face punching, this is the biggest draw back i see in KK, i respect them for full contact sparring and hard body training, but the lack of face punching seriously changes the way they fight.

so yes, most TMA have a hands down approach.

**Hesperus** · Posted On: 8/12/2009 1:56am

What's a TMA, again? Haven't we already made the argument that boxing, MT, BJJ, Judo and wrestling are much, much older than Shotokan, TKD or aikido?

**socratic** · Posted On: 8/12/2009 6:45am

Originally Posted by honest_truth

unfortunately many striking based TMA either tap spar or do not allow face punching, this is the biggest draw back i see in KK, i respect them for full contact sparring and hard body training, but the lack of face punching seriously changes the way they fight.

Except Kyokushin guys keep their hands up to defend their heads from kicks. Probably why it's pretty easy to convert from Kyokushin to Kickboxing.

**dwkfym** · Posted On: 8/13/2009 12:28am

A lot of western kickboxing is Kempo/Karate derived, with heavy influences from Muay Thai and Boxing.

Set up to side kicks are the same from what I learned in HKD. Footwork from these western kickboxing gyms are similar to Kempo, Karate, KMA that have a relatively sideways stance. Certain kick-punch combos are similar to some moves from hyungs(kata/form) and I incorporate it, but it is sort of a chicken or egg argument.

Aside from the general similarities, I don't see much else. I mean the whole TMA/MMA/KB dichotomy is artificial anyways. At my HKD school, one had was up at face level at all times. Other hand defended the body. (not the best form, IMO, but just to show not all schools teach to keep hands low.)