11/08/2009 11:19pm, #101
- Join Date
- Mar 2006
11/09/2009 1:10am, #102
11/09/2009 3:31am, #103
- Join Date
- Feb 2008
I have many friends of different and no religions, including a few Muslims and while all of them are pissed off about US and UK foreign policy (they are not the only ones, many non Muslims share their feelings) none of my Muslim friends would support the actions of this person.
The kind of thinking that you demonstrate here is a primitive form of splitting into good and bad, in this case of Non Muslims and Muslims respectively. Babies do it, all humans do it when stressed and defensive, but it is a very unhelpful response at a time when a more sophisticated level of mental functioning is required.
I'm not immune to this kind of primitive thinking, nobody is. The morning after 9/11 I remember looking at veiled Muslim women walking in the street where I live and having some pretty horrible feelings towards them, a mixture of fear, hate and repulsion.
FWIW I think it's OK to have such a response, it's a basic human thing, but it's incredibly important to be able to THINK about about our feelings and to not give rein to our most primitive fears and impulses, exactly because this is what Hasan did. He split people into good and bad, ignoring their individual selves and just went on a murderous rampage believing that he was doing a good thing that his God would approve of.
The history of the world is stained with the blood of horrific atrocities all committed by people convinced that they have God on their side and that they were doing a good thing.
11/09/2009 3:46am, #104
- Join Date
- Oct 2008
I'll repeat myself... People with a little history background will remember what happened in WWI when the war seemed purposeless, unwinnable, and inhuman. Exactly the same ****.
Last edited by creativo; 11/09/2009 5:02am at .
11/09/2009 4:23am, #105
- Join Date
- Feb 2008
I also want to say something as a mental health professional who has personal experience of PTSD
I have worked as a counsellor with many women and girls who had PTSD and complex PTSD after being violated in wars and tribal conflicts.
I have not worked as a counsellor with servicemen and women but have servicemen in my family, one of whom, someone very close to me, suffered from PTSD and overwhelming guilt over some of the things that he did, things he did under orders but conflicted with his own internal moral code.
These are some provisional thoughts and I share them with you, for what they are worth
Firstly I do not know what kind of professional support and clinical supervision Hasan received but I think that gaining some understanding of this will be crucially important to understanding what happened.
IME of working in mental health psychiatrists tend to fall into 2 distinct categories, they are either psychodynamically informed or psychodynamically naive. This is important. I strongly suspect that Hasan falls into the latter category.
The first group will have an understanding of unconscious processes and will have themselves undertaken a lengthy period of personal psychoanalysis / psychotherapy. These people understand that they are flawed, imperfect human beings whose job it is to try to help other through developing a therapeutic alliance (a deep and intimate relationship contained by strict professional boundaries) with the patient.
The second group, I would call them organic psychiatrists, have an entirely different philosophy based on the idea that the patient is a broken machine and it is the job of the psychiatrist to mend them. Typically organic psychiatrists have not had any personal therapy as part of their training as they do not see themselves as being "broken" , they see no reason to examine their own minds as they are the doctors who mend people using a range of treatments that aim to mend the broken bits of patients.
Both groups may offer drug treatments and talking cures, however the organic group are more likely to offer drug treatments and "quick fix" talking therapies, whereas the psychodynamic group are more likely to offer longer, more in depth talking cures., although of course the type of treatment offered will depend on the needs of the patient and the resources available at the time.
In psychodynamically informed circles organic psychiatrists are considered notorious for not being aware of their own "issues" and organic psychiatry does tend to attract people who are attracted to the idea of mending the minds of others rather than examining their own internal conflicts, which are often considerable.
In fact i knew (just through a message board) an organic psychiatrist who had a breakdown at work and who was eventually sectioned after assaulting a female colleague who he perceived as an enemy who was bullying him.
I had exchanged a few PMs with him before his breakdown and communicated with his via PMs and phone messages after he was sectioned, in fact until he started to think that I was "the enemy" because I could not meet his increasingly demanding requests for my time on the phone.
This man was highly intelligent and was a well respected consultant psychiatrist, however his being bullied (if that is what was happening - I only had his side of the story) and his complete lack of understanding of his own internal conflicts lead to him aggressively assaulting a colleague.
Some of the things he said to me demonstrated that his grip on reality had been compromised and he definitely had some kind of a breakdown which ended badly.
Anyway, I digress...
We won't know what kind of professional support and clinical supervision Hasan received but right now I would put money on it being inadequate and not informed by psychodynamic understanding as if it had been, Hasan would have been identified as being a danger to others a long time before he went on his murderous rampage.
I would like to write more about the effects of hearing horrific "war stories" can have on mental health staff, as this is something I have significant experience of. no time right now, but later .
Last edited by littleoldme; 11/09/2009 4:28am at .
11/09/2009 8:17am, #106
- Join Date
- Feb 2008
still pushed for time but I would invite anyone who has half an hour to spare to watch this video, simply because it is highly relevant to some points I would like to make about this horrific event, which I shall do when I have a moment
YouTube- Philip Zimbardo: Why ordinary people do evil ... or do good
11/09/2009 8:42am, #107
I was saying the same thing to a friend at the V.A...."counsulers" of the PTSD variety more than likely need consuling also.
With that being said I still believe the guy deserves a firing squad! And I'm not sure how this works, but any retirement, cash savings and/or personal belongings of his should be auctioned off and given to the families of the victims.
11/09/2009 9:34am, #108
Guy Who Pays the Bills and Gets the Death Threats
- Join Date
- Jun 1998
- Cow Town
- MMA (Retired)
And the "haw haw, nobody can pin me down!" theory of ideology is itself not only pure intellectual cowardice, it is perfectly adolescent. It's a C- in freshman composition and rhetoric at best. And this ain't your best, since your own set of ideologies is fairly easy identified. It's not even libertarianism, it's typical paleoconservatism with a dash of faux rhetorical rebelliousness found very often in the post-Boomer crowd. (Incidentally, that's just a sign that liberalism will always win in the end, as even conservatives have now mostly adapted to the cultural inevitabilities of the televised fart joke and girls wearing pants.)
The reason why the notion that every Muslim shares in some collective responsibility for Hassan or that every environmentalist shares in some collective responsibility for people who engage in protection is stupid is because Muslim, environmentalist, Christian, Marxist, martial artist, father, National Guardsman, Republican, Jew, etc. are not homogeneous categories. And, indeed, homogeneous categories of identity do not and cannot exist in any intellectually useful way. If Shia Muslims blow up a Sunni mosque, clearly no reasonable person would conclude, "The Sunni Muslims share responsibility for the attack on that Sunni mosque because they identify as Muslim", but under your "Muslims are responsible for the actions of a Muslim" rubric clearly they would be. If ultra-Orthodox Jews throw rocks at White_Kimbo for having tattoos, well then that would be his responsibility as a Jew that he was a victim/aggressor.
All you did was apply another label, as if that invalidates the point. In fact, you don't seem to be getting the point at all.
So too would be the group of Congresspeople as a whole be responsible for some passed legislation, even including those who voted against the legislation and took other steps (in committee, during debate on the floor, as part of a filisbuster, etc.) to defeat the legislation.
So too would any members of a protest movement, though they all have their own ideologies and affinities be responsible for the actions of the black bloc, or the Democratic Party members looking to dissolve the protest into a voting drive, or the police agents provocateur looking to start trouble so heads can be busted in.
And of course, even within those groups there are divisions. Even the most disciplined cadre, freely interacting (a necessary condition for choosing an identity), have differences of opinion and goals, and take different actions.
Really, if some arch-feminist showed up on this site and used the reasoning that the male members of this site are all rapists because for the most part men rape women and have the cultural power to normalize the idea of rape, of woman as sex objects, etc., there would be an enormous thread full of "Not me!" and "Nuh-uh, I'll kill any rapist I see with my white-belt buttscooting skills!" and despite the silly defensiveness and posturing of course the boys would be right; not all men are rapists nor do they share responsibility for the criminal and cultural phenomenon of rape. (Though of course it would be best if men would assume responsibility for being anti-rape by avoiding rhetoric like "Eh, bitch was prolly askin' for it" "Women fake being raped all the time to get men in trouble!" and such.)
And yet, the same thing comes out of your mouth—just swap out crime for crime and identity for identity—and we're intellectual cowards for not accepting it? Don't be silly.
It's your primitive vision of what it means to identify as something which is at fault, and clearly you have a lot of your own identity wrapped up being above or beyond ideology, but neither notion stands up to even a moment's scrutiny. Basically, you're just twisting yourself in a lot of rhetorical knots to end up at the same position as an anti-Islamic conservative while avoiding identifying as either anti-Islamic or conservative. Of course, you're the boss of the site and thus have the power and the right to repeat your high school-level rhetoric as much as you like, but don't be surprised if none of the members of this site with triple-digit IQs take it seriously no matter how many times you call them cowards.
2. It's not rhetoric, it's common sense. You can't have your cake and eat it too; you can't call yourself an apple if you want to be thought of as an orange.
3. Labels have meaning beyond what you want them to mean. In fact, it doesn't even fucking matter in the least what you think they should mean. And that's where your argument falls apart.
You do realize this, right? Unless you manage public opinion about the meaning of a label, the public will form their own. And management of public opinion is something that is the responsibility of any member of a group who feels that group is worth being a part of in the first place.
You can't throw up your hands and say "Insha'Allah" if you're going to turn around and complain about where the chips fall. It's morally repugnant to abdicate any responsibility over something while still fully expecting others to perceive it a certain way.
On the flip-side, if you truly don't give a **** about how the group you've chosen to be a part of is perceived, then you have no responsibility over it. Just don't get caught complaining about the cold air on your balls when you refuse to put on pants.
11/09/2009 10:57am, #109
The problem is the military is too fucking chicken **** to say anything to assholes like this due to fear of being called racist, harassment, islamaphobe if that's even a word.
It always comes out after, a glaring fucking red flagged trail of indicators which are obvious to even a mental retard.
Then everyone sits around and Ohhs and Ahhs over it.
So ya he said he hates the imperial pig dog Americans and wold rather kill people than deploy to fight is muslim brothers, yea we didn't see that one coming did we.
Someone joins the US military and recieves schooling. Lets just say, medical school.
Said soldier refuses to honour the contract he signed (basically) and refuses to deploy.
No big deal.
Option 1-Confined to base for the duration of his or her units deployment 6 days a week and spends his days working his ass off. Maintenance, snow removal, landscaping, whatever.
Option 2-Military jail during the duration of their units deployment.
In either option the individual gets released from the military and OWEs the government the cost of their schooling or whatever the equivalent would have been for them to do it civi side.
When someone has indicators of flying off the handle the military police should investigate.You are not free whose liberty is won by the rigour of other, more righteous souls. Your are merely protected. Your freedom is parasitic, you suck the honourable man dry and offer nothing in return. You who have enjoyed freedom, who have done nothing to earn it
11/09/2009 11:03am, #110
Know what pisses me off?
The cocksuckers at Rabble.ca
I can't post there due to an ip ban. Seems like they think Hasan is a hero.
I'm speculating that as a psychiatrist, he's heard a lot of sick **** first hand from the troops about the depraved, murderous acts they've committed against civilians, and had enough.
The guy's a hero.
I'd like to know how a single guy with two handguns managed to shoot over 40 people, many of them combat veterans, before he was stopped.
**** I'd love to discuss politics with them in a locked room. I guarantee they'd lack the backbone to call that murderer a hero in front of me.You are not free whose liberty is won by the rigour of other, more righteous souls. Your are merely protected. Your freedom is parasitic, you suck the honourable man dry and offer nothing in return. You who have enjoyed freedom, who have done nothing to earn it