Where is the line for when Bullshido becomes Fraud?

**maofas** · Posted On: 11/05/2009 1:26pm

Personally, yes I do think it's fraudulent, but I also think martial arts are too much of a niche community/commodity for these issues to be handled properly by lay people in a court of law.

**Mtripp** · Posted On: 11/05/2009 4:50pm

I have always handled the "traditional judo" people in a simple manner. I ask them to show me "nage no kata!" To date none of them could. So, how "traditional" are you if you can't do any of the kata Kano himself put into the system?

One would think that would be part of the "tradition."

**Larus marinus** · Posted On: 11/05/2009 5:22pm

Originally Posted by Mtripp

I have always handled the "traditional judo" people in a simple manner. I ask them to show me "nage no kata!" To date none of them could. So, how "traditional" are you if you can't do any of the kata Kano himself put into the system?

One would think that would be part of the "tradition."

Are these the guys that refer to the art as 'Jiu-do', as a matter of interest? Or are they yet another subdivision?

**DarkPhoenix** · Posted On: 11/05/2009 6:01pm

Originally Posted by Larus marinus

Are these the guys that refer to the art as 'Jiu-do', as a matter of interest? Or are they yet another subdivision?

It's just another silly romanisation of the word for "gentle" or "yielding".

**cuatro76** · Posted On: 11/05/2009 6:51pm

Is this guy still cherry-picking any of your current students through false pretenses? I think you'd definitely have a case then. But if that was 18 years ago it's probably to late to anything legally. I think you'd have to prove that his actions are currently hurting your business as a Judo instructor.

Just set up a challenge match like this classic "fight"
YouTube- No Touch Kiai vs MMA

**Larus marinus** · Posted On: 11/05/2009 8:21pm

Originally Posted by cuatro76

Is this guy still cherry-picking any of your current students through false pretenses? I think you'd definitely have a case then. But if that was 18 years ago it's probably to late to anything legally. I think you'd have to prove that his actions are currently hurting your business as a Judo instructor.

Just set up a challenge match like this classic "fight"
YouTube- No Touch Kiai vs MMA

So in effect, in this case the court of law is the mat/ring/cage, your fists and feet (and throws and foo-bars) are the prosecution, your opponent's blood is the hard, irrefutable evidence and his students, buddies, family and dog (whom you invited to watch the gong-sau) are the jury?

:bully:

**cuatro76** · Posted On: 11/06/2009 7:49am

Originally Posted by Larus marinus

So in effect, in this case the court of law is the mat/ring/cage, your fists and feet (and throws and foo-bars) are the prosecution, your opponent's blood is the hard, irrefutable evidence and his students, buddies, family and dog (whom you invited to watch the gong-sau) are the jury?

:bully:

Correct. And then youtube becomes CourtTV with constant replays.

**Heltern** · Posted On: 11/06/2009 8:39am

It is fraud, there are legitimate Judo organizations and they are not members of them. Judo is not Taekwon Do with 400 federations a bunch of self promoted Grand Masters and a bunch of marlarky. But if they are allowed to spread a Judo black belt will mean no more than a TKD black belt, possibly two years of training by a suspect teacher and you get your black belt with the 8 year olds. They must be stopped!

**Iainkelt** · Posted On: 11/06/2009 10:35am

Originally Posted by Heltern

It is fraud, there are legitimate Judo organizations and they are not members of them. Judo is not Taekwon Do with 400 federations a bunch of self promoted Grand Masters and a bunch of marlarky. But if they are allowed to spread a Judo black belt will mean no more than a TKD black belt, possibly two years of training by a suspect teacher and you get your black belt with the 8 year olds. They must be stopped!

I would say what they are doing is a "fraud" in the sense that they are full of crap and awarding themselves ranks that they didn't honestly earn (by any manner that legit martial artists would recognize). However, if you are using the word fraud as it pertains to any legal context then the word has very specific definitions and I don't think what they are doing meets those requirements. Remember, according to their "style" and its rules they did earn their belts so claiming they are rank X in that style is factually correct. It's just that the style is crap and the ranks are worthless. That however doesn't automatically make them fraudulent in a legal sense (at least in the states I am licensed in, but as noted earlier the law changes state to state). Now, if they are claiming that they are ranked under a legit style or through an org that they are not, it could be a different case.

**Heltern** · Posted On: 11/06/2009 11:31am

I found a place that claims the founder did fake rank in legitimate federations by altering documents (A USJF black belt membership card) http://www.e-budokai.com/jukokai/index.htm and false claims of being a Green Beret http://www.pownetwork.org/phonies/phonies464.htm.