11/04/2009 4:19am, #11
- Join Date
- Jul 2007
- Stockholm, Sweden, EU
Can't fraud be seen as a displacement of the worth of a style? If you are taught really good MT or BJJ and the teacher says that you'll do just fine in MMA, since the striking/grappling game is so good, then it's fraud.
11/04/2009 5:11am, #12
- Join Date
- Sep 2009
- Dubrovnik, Croatia
Well, unless you can prove that this Juko-lie is a fraud (no matter that we all know it's bullshido / mcdojo organization), but legally prove that it's a fraud, then your ex-student's rank can't be fraud, just simple bullshido... unfortunately for all the unlucky that his classes attract...
but knowing that... if people are interested enough to learn a martial art sooner or later they are going to discover the true depths of their teachers knowledge, and see his lessons in true light...
11/05/2009 6:26am, #13
11/05/2009 10:45am, #14
what rank is he claiming in Juko-kai/lie?
You stated HE, the principal of this discussion is AWARDED 10th IN Juko-kai/lie. Correct?
So this would make him, the principal 10th Dan, correct?
10th Dan in Juko-kai/lie =/= to 10th Dan in, say USJA/USJF, USJI, correct?
This, I don't know what you can do about, other then assist in some manner of article for the website detailing what exactly Juko-kai/lie training is, what it entails and the potential shortcomings of the style for someone whom is wishing to learn Judo.
Within that system, if He, the principal, has performed all the actions necessary of receiving that grading, then really there isn't much that can be done except detailing WHAT the actions are in respect to the grading.
An article fully fleshing out the details of the differences would help the ignorant consumer.
Any other suggestions are appreciated here.
Jujitsu - 10th dan;
Under which organization and from whom, where and when.
THIS is something that is actionable, if he isn't being forthright about all the details.
Traditional Judo - I think 7th or 8th dan.
You stated YOU awarded him, the principal, his Shodan over 18 yrs. ago, correct?
Then finding out under which organization and from whom, where and when he ascended to nana/hachidan should be obtainable and, if not, actionable.
But, and this is key, there is no training. You go to a clinic once a year and learn a few bull crap moves; but you pay for your promotions along the way. There are no "secret temple sessions" where the real deadly is taught. People just do their own thing, from book or video, and get ranked as they pay for it.
And PHD's etc.
11/05/2009 11:02am, #15
Just tell him to go to hell Mark. We all know that he is full of **** and in the back of his mind so does he.
The next time someone says they do traditional Judo I want to just skull drag them on the spot. That bullshit of we don't follow the rules and what you do is a sport is the biggest cop out for men who have a vagina.
He got his shodan in Judo and then went on to do that combat ki ****. Give him the finger and a box of tampons and tell him to shove both of them in his vag and come do some randori.Judo is only gentle for the guy on top.
11/05/2009 11:37am, #16
Seems to be some confusion here.
First, the group is called "Juko-kai." I call them "juko-lie" based on the number of untruths they tell and continue to tell. Judo-kai and its "Soke," whom I call the "Jo-kay," are fully exposed here. They are more than bullshido because they claim to be alined with major groups in Japan/Okinawa, but said groups do not exist.
18 years ago I promoted the person in question to shodan, in Jujitsu, through USJA. Less than 6 months later he "cherry picked" students and went his own way. This is because I learned the truth about Rod and Juko-lie and ended my association with them. This guy, and several others, knew they would never earn rank through anyone but Juko-lie. So they stayed with them, took a bunch of students, and that was that.
ALL of his current ranks are from the Jokay and Juko-lie.
I hope that clears things up.
11/05/2009 12:06pm, #17
i feel that this post on judo forum from the matthew morton thread is especially relevant in this case and will quote a couple of key points from it: http://judoforum.com/index.php?showt...0&#entry519580
In virtually no country, jûdô dan-ranks are protected by law.This situation can only be corrected by having external accrediting agencies and procedures, and by making judo-ranks protected by law. In France, for example, judo ranks are now protected by law. Only certain organizations may issue them, and it is a criminal offense to claim a rank which one does not hold. In many European countries, coaching and instructor courses or qualifications may be law not be issued by judo or sports organizations, and the main reason is to have consistency and quality control.
You ask about 'investigation', but there is little to investigate. All those judo ranks of 9th dan, etc, issued under Phil Porter, are completely valid under the US system. He had the authority to do what he did, or he made the rules as they are. So, strictly he did not do anything wrong with regard to those rules. Since there is no law establishing those criteria, and dan-ranks are not protected, you can technically call yourself whatever dan-ranks you want. Mr. Morton's mistake is not that he calls himself a certain dan-rank, but that he forged credentials and caused damage to others by using their credentials.
so, unless he is claiming that his rank is a USJA/USJF/Kodokan rank, i don't think he can be legally accused of *fraud*, no matter how much that sucks, unless we do what they do in france and make it a crime.
i should point out that it hurts me deeply to admit that the french are doing something right."Face punches are an essential character building part of a martial art. You don't truly love your children unless you allow them to get punched in the face." - chi-conspiricy
"When I was a little boy, I had a sailor suit, but it didn't mean I was in the Navy." - Mtripp on the subject of a 5 year old karate black belt
"Without actual qualifications to be a Zen teacher, your instructor is just another roundeye raping Asian culture for a buck." - Errant108
"Seriously, who gives a **** what you or Errant think? You're Asian males, everyone just ignores you, unless you're in a krotty movie." - new2bjj
11/05/2009 1:00pm, #18
- Join Date
- Sep 2009
- Hawaii, HI
Sadly, that does appear to be the case. I'm not sure which is sadder. That someone can hand out ranks that they themselves hasn't even earned, or that someone can feel that they "earned" a tenth dan in such a manner and therefore talk down to someone who legitimately earned a high dan ranking.
11/05/2009 1:11pm, #19
I actually stopped posting on JI because of the Morton indecent and particularly that post.
Legally yes no dan rank is protected or governed by law. Morally they should all be protected by the people who are Judoka or whatever. That whole indecent was appalling and I just as soon forget about it. I simply tell people if they do not have a certificate from JA JI or JF they don't have Judo rank in the US. Tradition Judo or non sport Judo or Bobby Joes Judo is not Kodokan Judo. They can make up whatever **** they want but its not Judo.
When they start saying that they are JI JA or JF and they are not that would be fraud like Morton. Plain and simple this is America and they are allowed to make up whatever MA they chose to do. We as representatives of our chosen martial art are obligated to inform and educate others on what it is that we do and how it is different from the other martial arts.Judo is only gentle for the guy on top.
11/05/2009 2:07pm, #20
- Join Date
- Aug 2009
as to the definition of fraud, there isn't a static definition. it changes state by state, and you'd do best consulting an attorney with experience in fraud to determine whether what the guy's doing meets the definition of fraud in your state. Many times, there is also an equivalent business offense. Further, there are other causes of action in the civil courts that can be pursued if the required elements of the offense are met. Again, this is best discussed with a lawyer in that jurisdiction.
that being said, and it being noted that a person can say they are 25th dan poo poo do or whatever, there are other possibilities if you want to drag this mamzer into court and air his dirty laundry there. If he's advertising that he's a higher rank than you in judo, then chances are, you can drag him into court because the fact of the matter is he doesn't outrank you in kodokan judo. His misrepresentation could be considered false advertising, and he could be interfering with your business. But, again, it depends on how your jurisdiction interprets these things. Consult a legal professional.
On the other hand, if the graphics are good, and you can get a few good sound bites, exposing him via the local media for the bullshido he is might get you more traction at less cost....