BJJ and Luta Livre. From a guy who did both

[Shawarma]

Indeed, a very good first post. Are there still fights going on between Gracie JiuJitsu and Luta Livre guys? There's that video of Rickson Gracie and Hugo Duarte fighting on a beach, which was supposed to be a style rivalry, but that was a long time ago.

[C0nan]

Thank you for the welcome !

Some of you said that there is a problem about school management and not a problem of style . That may be true . Luta livre , in my humble opinion , has not a problem in style ( it is very close of bjj in its effectiveness) , the problem is that they have a rigid mind, and teachers are very authoritarian . Cross training (but Muay thai with fellow LL teachers who do both or MMA ) is usually forbidden . They get mad if you say ´´ I am going to fight a in Bjj no gi tourney ´´.As an example , a friend of mine joined a Sub wrestling tournament and was expelled from the school. The usually compete against BJJ in vale tudo , but seldom in grappling . In south america Luta Livre has its own leagues , in Europe the issue is more relaxed ( because the teacher are non brazilian nor traditional)....as an example the guys from german luta livre ( taifun LL) do engage in regular sub wrestling events.

The average LL tourney looks like a submission wrestling , where if you pull guard you are scoring a takedown for your opponent . Other common thing , is the possibility to smash a guy against the mat to defend a triangle or armbar , you can also nail his head against the floor -with a takedown or picking him up -and KO him if you want.

Other answer :
The rivalry still exists , but there are not riots nor dojo attacks. People of bjj and luta livre , in general support their respective style with assertiveness , but rarely engage in street combats like in the past.In fact , today , some LL mestres ( grand masters ) are invited to coach some classes the no gi practice in some (non gracie Bjj ) schools as a gesture of friendship , but that is far from common. Generally - GENERALLY -black belts who change of style , are quickly awarded a purple belt in the other style.
The video you are talking about (shawarma) ,was an unplanned fight. There are two versions of the event.

Bjj story : Mr. Duarte insulted the Gracie Family , being Rickson present , so Rickson fought to clean the honor of the gracies.

Luta livre story (My former teacher was a direct acquaintance of Hugo duarte ) : Evil Rickson Gracie set up the fight to gain advantage , attacking Duarte one day after the latter had party night with 4 hours of sleep and Hang over. This is claimed by Duarte Himself.

Its hard to know the truth ...but LL guys are always blaming BJJ for everything.

[bigstu31s]

Thank you for the welcome !

Some of you said that there is a problem about school management and not a problem of style . That may be true . Luta livre , in my humble opinion , has not a problem in style ( it is very close of bjj in its effectiveness) , the problem is that they have a rigid mind, and teachers are very authoritarian . Cross training (but Muay thai with fellow LL teachers who do both or MMA ) is usually forbidden . They get mad if you say ´´ I am going to fight a in Bjj no gi tourney ´´.As an example , a friend of mine joined a Sub wrestling tournament and was expelled from the school. The usually compete against BJJ in vale tudo , but seldom in grappling . In south america Luta Livre has its own leagues , in Europe the issue is more relaxed ( because the teacher are non brazilian nor traditional)....as an example the guys from german luta livre ( taifun LL) do engage in regular sub wrestling events.

The average LL tourney looks like a submission wrestling , where if you pull guard you are scoring a takedown for your opponent . Other common thing , is the possibility to smash a guy against the mat to defend a triangle or armbar , you can also nail his head against the floor -with a takedown or picking him up -and KO him if you want.

Other answer :
The rivalry still exists , but there are not riots nor dojo attacks. People of bjj and luta livre , in general support their respective style with assertiveness , but rarely engage in street combats like in the past.In fact , today , some LL mestres ( grand masters ) are invited to coach some classes the no gi practice in some (non gracie Bjj ) schools as a gesture of friendship , but that is far from common. Generally - GENERALLY -black belts who change of style , are quickly awarded a purple belt in the other style.
The video you are talking about (shawarma) ,was an unplanned fight. There are two versions of the event.

Bjj story : Mr. Duarte insulted the Gracie Family , being Rickson present , so Rickson fought to clean the honor of the gracies.

Luta livre story (My former teacher was a direct acquaintance of Hugo duarte ) : Evil Rickson Gracie set up the fight to gain advantage , attacking Duarte one day after the latter had party night with 4 hours of sleep and Hang over. This is claimed by Duarte Himself.

Its hard to know the truth ...but LL guys are always blaming BJJ for everything.

Maybe LL’s jealousy has something to do with the fact that BJJ has taken over the Martial Arts world.
Welcome to Bullshido BTW

[Sang]

Some good posts there Conan, i hadn't even heard of Luta Livre until now.

[M.C.]

Funny thing is, in Germany LL is way more common than BJJ (changing now). LL like I got to know in Germany is no gi BJJ with a few more options when it comes to submissions. They use the same names for most of the stuff, main idea of position over submission etc.

Funny thing is, there were a few show matches set up by the gracies if I recall it correct to determine which art is better, and the gracies picked their opponents wisely, won those show matches and went on to become the top grappling art in Brazil and later world wide.

[C0nan]

Funny thing is, there were a few show matches set up by the gracies if I recall it correct to determine which art is better, and the gracies picked their opponents wisely, won those show matches and went on to become the top grappling art in Brazil and later world wide.

Of course ! Those are the roots of the hate.They are jealous of the success of an art that is nearly the same , and their -LL- relative failure to promote a grappling art in MMA.
There is a fight between Hugo Duarte and Tank Abbott in Early UFC ,that ended with Tank Knocking out Duarte after an attempt of armbar - Duarte had Abbot's back-. I think that contributed to the failure of Luta Livre to build a name with Caps in MMA ( outside Brazil ).

[Vorpal]

Informative post. Welcome Conan, thanks for contributing.

[SaintHamish]

Interesting posts, I must admit I always thought that Luta Livre was simply no-gi BJJ.....Obviously it has its own lineage and curriculim.....

[Octofish]

Hi Conan, thanks for your perspective. But my experience is completely different from yours. I have been training Luta Livre for about two years in a school in Germany. Over here, it is indeed a very common grappling style and there is a reasonably large grappling-community.

I have been grappling for about 2 years in a Style called Luta Livre . It is basically submission wrestling , with any submission legal ( including heel hook , and any neck crank legal for ALL belts and events).

Well, no. Not over here, at least. If heel hooks are legal, then only for advanced divisions. That is by the way usual for all tourneys, not style-specific ones.

3) The main instructor was always talking about respect , and he held the class in a semi military way. You had to use some special words to address him , and we have to bow at the beginning of the training . This respect , disappeared when he talked about BJJ .

In our school, and the ones I know, the atmosphere is anything but military or authoritarian. It is quite relaxed and fun.

So….there is not any problem with the GI ! You always can remove it...

Okay, I am not going into the whole gi/no-gi debate.

Bjj does not hate luta livre , but many LL guys hates BJJ ...Luta livre should convert to no gi BJJ , because that it what it is. They want to keep their name for pride.

I don't know any fighters that "hate" BJJ. Some guys I know cross train BJJ for fun, we have BJJ-fighters coming to class and we go to the same tournaments. I doubt that would be the case, if the atmosphere in Germany would be as bad as you describe.

Also, Luta Livre is not BJJ. So there is no reason why fighters should convert. The two styles obviously have many similarities, something that can hardly be avoided in a grappling world where everyone learns from everyone else and has two arms and legs. But it does have different roots, Catch, and we often fight slightly differently. For example a slightly heavier reliance on top-game, a "tighter" contact and maybe a heavier focus on foot-locks. (BUT: These are all factors that depend on the person anyway, so take this as my subjective experience.)

http://www.brazilianlutalivre.com/

Then I will offer http://www.lutalivre.net/index.php/home.html in english.

the problem is that they have a rigid mind, and teachers are very authoritarian . Cross training (but Muay thai with fellow LL teachers who do both or MMA ) is usually forbidden .

Not over here. Many of our students cross train. Also, as stated above, my teacher is not authoritarian. No silly symbols, secret hand-shakes or rituals.

in Europe the issue is more relaxed ( because the teacher are non brazilian nor traditional)....as an example the guys from german luta livre ( taifun LL) do engage in regular sub wrestling events.

Sure, and they are a very successful team. But yeah: All teams I know go to any tournament.

Overall, it sounds like you just experienced a crappily run school and assume, that all LL is like that. I understand your frustration, but have to say again, that LL is quite different over here. People cross-train, show respect towards each other and do it for love of grappling - It you ever make it to Germany, you should check it out.

[Rene "Zendokan" Gysenbergs]

Can you compare Luta Livre to 10th Planet Jiu Jitsu (Eddie Bravo's no-gi Bjj except the rubber guard offcourse)?
Or am I missing the point?

thanks