Posted On:1/26/2005 3:50pm
Style: Muay Thai
There was a brownbelt at my old dojang who I hated sparring. He was bigger than me, and more skilled, and he'd throw the spinning back kick like there was no tommorow. It took eating a lot of full on back kicks before I learned how to fake him out and then close in. And for those of you who have never walked into a back kick, it essentially produces a TKO.
Tough is not how you act, tough is how you train.
Posted On:1/26/2005 3:57pm
Style: Shi Ja Quan
Lets make this simple.
Ask anyone who has ever done BOTH Boxing and TKD.
You will find your answer there.
Posted On:1/26/2005 4:04pm
All Out of Bubblegum
Posted On:1/26/2005 4:36pm
I've done both, and I have to say boxer. I know that's a bitch, but it's pretty much a matter of conditioning and mindset. The skill of individuals muddies the water so much, but I really feel if I take, say, two adult men in the same weight class with five years of training under their belt, one at random from a reputable TKD gym and the other, at random, from a boxing gym, I can count on the boxer to hit harder and go longer. It's just my opinion, and it really has to do with a higher quality of cardio, strength, and live hitting taught in boxing. .
Of course, none of this applies if the two people are equally serious atheletes with equally skilled instruction and equal physical potential - that'd be a hell of a fight -I'm just saying, on the percentages, I'd expect a higher level of athleticism and a better chin off of a given boxer then a given TKDer. . . but it's because of training method, not style.
Of course, it's a silly comparison - the handwork in boxing is better then the handwork in TKD. Even devolped, old school TKD. The kicking is better in TKD, and the inclusion of throws and locks in TKD coupled with the lack of a closed glove give it the potential to be more complete then boxing, but as generally practiced, it's not realistic to say it is. To be complete, it's best to take the good things from both...
I'm sure all that got covered at some point in this damn zumbie thread...but what the hell, I've got nothing but time and opinions.
Last edited by JohnnyCache; 2/04/2005 6:28pm at .
There's no choice but to confront you, to engage you, to erase you. I've gone to great lengths to expand my threshold of pain. I will use my mistakes against you. There's no other choice.
Posted On:1/26/2005 5:07pm
I thought of another angle on this, and I'm going to go ahead and double post it instead of editing it in 20 mins later...because it hasn't occured to me before today and I want it peer reviewed...
Hypothosis: it is better to be a hands specialist then a kicks specialist if you have the freedom to train either but not both.
The hands are more coordinated, more trainable, more agile, more usable for defense, more adapatable, and they hit 80%-95% as hard...
The boxer's jab is as long or nearly as long as the tkder's midsection and up kicks...
Posted On:1/26/2005 6:16pm
Style: Chinese Boxing
Originally Posted by Forseti
Apparently that isn't so....Then towards the end, just walk right on in and punch your opponent so hard in the body....
First of all... you're an asshole (damn those speed reading coarses)......
Second of all.... It's a bitch punching through those Hogus.
Posted On:1/26/2005 6:19pm
Originally Posted by lifetime
This is so stupid I don't even know where to begin.
WTF TKD is a game. Nobody's claiming it to be the be-all-end-all of fighting. I'm not even getting into this debate, it's been done before, and it's been talked to death, and EVERYBODY, EVEN THE TKD HATERS, has got the point. Apparently you've missed out.
Grabbing the guy's hogu? Maybe in your years of understanding and wisdom, you'd understand that even WTF TKD, flawed as it is, has a basic clinch.
By your logic: It is so HORRID, when boxers figure the other guy has a better punch. Instead of relying on the kick, which is IMPOSSIBLE to score on, they just grab the other guy and stall for time.
And yes. Add takedowns and face punching to WTF TKD. And while you're at it, you might as well allow golf players to pick up the ball in play, and have basketball players run with the ball. Because the rules of sports these days are just SO stupid.
Who has more credibility ??? The TKD stylist who reflexively defends Tae Kwon Do, or the guy who realizes that what he's done has serious wholes and flaws in it.
I find your knowledge shockingly low. And it's generally why I have such a LOW opinion of MOST of my fellow TKD practitioners. If you were in the US, I'd go to a throwdown just to spar you.
Oh well I guess. Let me know when we're in the states so we can settle things.
More substantially, I will point out that the great Bill Wallace used JUST THREE kicks. Front side, Front round, Front hook. Front leg is quicker, when done properly, it has ALL the power you need. Those pivoting on their foot while the kick is in the air will not have this power. This is the problem with 90% of the kickers I see.
The "hogo grab" is NOT a clinch. Because that's a "breakup" situation. It's a stalling tactic, not an effort to initiate a hold, takedown, or throw.
You go ON and ON about all your setup with your footwork and kicks. Most of that will go 100% OUT the window when you deal with someone who prefers the inside game. The ONLY reason you can sustain this footwork with a TKD player is that THEY TOO prefer the outside game.
Now why do I say that TKD sparring rules need to be augmented ??? Because the rules in place actually condition their athletes to do REALLY STUPID things like turning their back and not guarding their head. In addition because punching is so devalued in TKD, TKD practitioners tend to have little sense for blocking.
I have seen this OVER, and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER again. I have no idea whether you are the exception. But I do know that what you do in a self defense situation is CONDITIONED not REASONED. If you train with your hands down, you will tend to spar with your hands down.
I went from a WTF to a Chung Do Kwan school and those blackbelts kept beating on me until I conditioned myself to keep my hands up (though I was NEVER as bad as those guys who hold their hands down limply).
Futhermore, the way that TKD sparring is executed makes TKD look SILLY And STUPID, and it has me saying I know Karate instead of TKD because my WTF brethren do things that are SO INCREDIBLY STUPID.
I was once in the EXACT same position as you are arguing on internet forums about the effectiveness of TKD. Over time, I have been taught and seen how I was wrong as you are now. Even over that STUPID axe kick!!!! You got a hammer, you go looking for nails. Then you're pounding in screws.
If YOU are so convinced about how you'd do against a good boxer, I suggest you go signup at a local boxing school and put some money down on a K-1 style match with one of the top guys at the gym. You'll probably find that MOST of your kicks will bounce off the guy, you won't be able to land your punches and you'll get pummelled once the guy gets past your perimeter.
As far as low kicks go, the same hip/leg strength/coordination necessary to execute high kicks will translate into a low kick. Yes, you do have to specifically practice them.
Yes Koto got his name changed, quit asking...
Posted On:1/26/2005 6:22pm
Style: Kyokushin Karate
Originally Posted by Osiris
Not quite, but even if this was true, while the jab merely stuns at best, certain body blows such as the backside kick will end the fight. A boxer has to be a tad closer to seal the deal.
Depends on the reach of the boxer and whether he's taking a trigger step or not. A proper trigger step and an average reach will still outdistance the average TKDer's kicks. And I personally don't call it a jab, like Dempsey says, it should be more of a jolt. It's a good feeling to hit someone with your supposedly weaker side and have them stagger a bit :icon_mrgr
SON OF ODIN
My Punching with Power article
Posted On:1/26/2005 6:43pm
Originally Posted by Forseti
I think they should just put gloves on and allow punching to the face. They already have head gear, how would that be any more brutal than Olympic boxing? Perhaps they will make all of this moot and add pankration back to the Olympics....
*not holding my breath*
That would undermine the kicking. The point of Olympic TKD is to create something uniquely Korean.
Actually I think it's a good idea, plus a few of my own.
a) head punches - gets the guard up to something reasonable. It forces people to use OMG BLOCKS ... to avoid getting punched around. You can add faceguards to keep this from being boxing.
b) back punches - if you show your back, you get hit. Those hits should be worth A LOT!!!! Back of the neck should have a heavy gaurd (mounted to the hogu) to allow contact without risk of paralysis.
c) takedowns - if you go to the clinch you go judo.
d) grabs - if you leave your foot up in the air, you lose it. A take-down or escape would follow.
e) Leg kicks - Muay Thai shows it's not that dangerous as long as people are prepared. You have a premier kicking art, show it off.
f) Points awarded for forcing out the opponent - If you can maneuver your opponent out, you get points. It shouldn't be a subjectively awarded penalty, it should be part of the game. This forces spacial awareness, encourages lateral movement and AGAIN penalizes stallers.
Basically, you still have a relatively "safe" sparring methodology. It's all stand-up. It retains a focus on kicking (because it IS a kicking art). But it eliminates the nasty habits like un-controlled running (for space), back turning (to conceal scoring areas), no blocking (because hands don't score). So here, hand to head shots become primarily atemi to setup kicking. Thats what a kicking art should do, the same way Jujitsu has "strike to enter", and Aikido has "strike to grab".
However, WTF sparring is Olympic now. I think it's mostly set in stone because the Korean "Grandmasters" have invested so much into their sporting system.
Posted On:1/26/2005 6:50pm
Originally Posted by Osiris
Its quite the nasty KO too. It knocks the wind out of you and then some. Its such an awful feeling especially when you remain on your feet. Can't really move or inhale. You just kinda stand there in shock until you finally work your way to the ground and curl up.
Actually, my least favorite adversary back in the day was the side kick specialist. This was someone that certainly could throw a spinning back kick, but not necessarily throwing it all the time looking for a KO or just because they want a big hit. Instead they just stay at maximum range often with extra long legs sticking you with their front or turning side kick.
It seeps sometimes slowly through your guard paradoxically slipping beteen your arms or under your elbows no matter what you do. It seems like it always lands and mostly just prevents you from advancing, but every now and then if you are caught advancing and not concentrating, it will wind the hell out of you. And the accumulative effect by the end of a couple three minute rounds always seemed just so enormous to me -- perhaps because I wasn't breathing right for half the fight.
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