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  1. mike321 is online now

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    Posted On:
    10/27/2009 11:23am


     Style: kenpo, Wrestling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    G-off: Thanks for the second analysis.

    MMAMickey, Massive reduction of the analysis. Need a little more before I get onto that train. How do you see this reducing to that? Please explain. Also, Rashad was certainly not the first fighter to fall to Lyoto's style. And there are a lot of very good fighters in that weightclass.
  2. peepje is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/27/2009 11:31am

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     Style: Kickboxing

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    I'm not so sure 'not checking the lowkicks' is such a good idea. From watching a lot of K-1 fights i've learned that checking them is always the best solution: it's not just a defense, it's also a weapon; check three or four lowkicks correctly and you take away Shogun's will to throw them.

    With Machida's stance (putting weight on the front leg) it could actually help him to set up fast counters with his straight right.

    This is my first post on this board and I have zero experience with mma. But I've done a lot of tae kwon do (lol) some shotokan and recently started kickboxing here in holland (who have a lot of knowledge about lowkicks!).
  3. Kambei Shimada is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/27/2009 11:58am


     Style: Sub-Grap/MMA

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    The fact that Rua was soo successful using a purely technical Muay Thai gameplan makes me think that Anderson Silva would indeed beat Machida.
  4. G-Off is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/27/2009 1:49pm


     Style: Ronin wannabe

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    Quote Originally Posted by MMAMickey View Post
    So in a nutshell, lyoto's defensive problems are mostly due to his main standup art being karate?

    it worked fantastically against rashad because he rarely kicks (although capable of it), but going backwards to avoid a kick means going back a long way when your opponent is over 6'
    No. Going backwards wasn't really the problem, the problem was Machida going backwards and circling to his left side, straight into the kicks. If he'd gone straight back, he wouldn't have been hit as hard, but would've been easier to bully. If he'd gone back and to the right, it would've given him a better angle for his left straight and Shogun a worse angle for his right body/leg kick. Karate has nothing to do with it.

    Machida didn't always back up either, many times he moved straight in to try and counter with a left straight, but either his accuracy would be off, Shogun's defense would be too good, or he would have a bad angle because of his own mistake in footwork.

    Quote Originally Posted by peepje View Post
    I'm not so sure 'not checking the lowkicks' is such a good idea. From watching a lot of K-1 fights i've learned that checking them is always the best solution: it's not just a defense, it's also a weapon; check three or four lowkicks correctly and you take away Shogun's will to throw them.

    With Machida's stance (putting weight on the front leg) it could actually help him to set up fast counters with his straight right.

    This is my first post on this board and I have zero experience with mma. But I've done a lot of tae kwon do (lol) some shotokan and recently started kickboxing here in holland (who have a lot of knowledge about lowkicks!).
    Like I said, I know not checking kicks is crazy as hell. I just think Machida's front leg is too heavy in his stance to make that option fast enough, and changing his stance means changing things in his game.

    Straight punches, a kick to the plant leg or blocking and catching the opponent's kick are all valid counters to leg and body kicks as well, and I think those would be better options for Machida.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kambei Shimada View Post
    The fact that Rua was soo successful using a purely technical Muay Thai gameplan makes me think that Anderson Silva would indeed beat Machida.
    It'd certainly be one hell of a fight. Silva's muay thai is much more similar to Pelé's muay thai than Shogun's however. Silva tries much harder to use his hands and often relies on the quick leaping-in footwork that Machida also uses to bridge kicking to punching range. Let's not forget that Silva, while he switches stances fairly often, is also a southpaw. For a left-handed fighter, Machida was circling in the correct direction all through the Shogun fight, away from the power hand and leg.
    Last edited by G-Off; 10/27/2009 1:56pm at .
  5. peepje is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/27/2009 2:14pm

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     Style: Kickboxing

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    Quote Originally Posted by G-Off View Post
    Like I said, I know not checking kicks is crazy as hell. I just think Machida's front leg is too heavy in his stance to make that option fast enough, and changing his stance means changing things in his game.

    Straight punches, a kick to the plant leg or blocking and catching the opponent's kick are all valid counters to leg and body kicks as well, and I think those would be better options for Machida.
    kicking the planted leg is the best choice if you put it like that. trying to grab a lowkick could end in eating shinbone.
  6. G-Off is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/27/2009 2:18pm


     Style: Ronin wannabe

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    Quote Originally Posted by peepje View Post
    kicking the planted leg is the best choice if you put it like that. trying to grab a lowkick could end in eating shinbone.
    True. Catching bodykicks would be a better option for Machida, since to scoop a low kick you have to check it first anyway.
  7. Fighting Cephalopod is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/27/2009 6:21pm

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     Style: ZHOO ZHITSU

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    Machida's Successes and Future Plans
    A. What Machida Should NOT Do
    Check leg kicks.
    I realize this is crazy talk. The best defense against leg kicks is to check them, of course! The problem is, I believe lifting the front leg to check Shogun's kicks would disrupt Lyoto's stance an inordinate amount because so much weight is on Machida's front leg.
    Except that in rounds 4 and 5 Machida actually starts checking Shogun's leg kicks repeatedly. His stance did not appear to be significantly disrupted, and

    Shogun would have a field day mixing up leg kicks with feints and following up with straight punches.
    didn't happen.
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  8. G-Off is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/27/2009 7:42pm


     Style: Ronin wannabe

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fighting Cephalopod View Post
    Except that in rounds 4 and 5 Machida actually starts checking Shogun's leg kicks repeatedly. His stance did not appear to be significantly disrupted, and

    didn't happen.
    First, a big part of that was Machida changing his stance. He spent a good amount of time in the later rounds in orthdox to protect his right leg, and maybe more importantly he started standing slightly taller. Look a how deep he settles into his stance in round 2:



    Unfortunately, I don't have any good pictures/gifs of his standing stance in rounds 4 and 5, but it looked much more shallow to me. That meant he was able to shift his weight much moreto check kicks, but at a significant cost to his offense. Taking legs kicks so he can't have as deep a stance, or having a shallow stance in order to check those kicks both mean a loss in punching power and slow his back-and-forth movement. Both of these things are critical to Machida's offense, so he needs footwork and to pick up some of Shogun's kick counter ideas in order to defend effectively against leg kicks.

    As for Shogun not capitalizing on Machida's kick checks (which I still didn't see a ton of), I believe it to be mostly because of corner telling him he was winning, which took away from his aggressiveness. Had he still been pushing forward like in the 1st and 2nd rounds, me might've picked up on Machida being wary of his leg kicks, and starting following up with straight punches. But, that's just a guess.

    I'm almost certain that in his normal, deep, front-heavy stance, Machida would be slow in checking kicks to his right lead leg, and he needs the weight there in order to leap in and out of punching range quickly and with power. Switching to orthodox often isn't a horrible idea, but takes away his heavy left hand.

    Most important of all, many of Shogun's best leg kicks were simultaneous counters to Machida's body kicks. Machida should first and foremost circle to the correct side, to give better angles to his left kicks and punches, and worse angles for Shogun's right. If Shogun has to reach every time he kicks under a Machida kick, it puts him in more danger and makes his counter harder to land. Secondly, he should try mixing in more leg kicks. Though there are counters aplenty to leg kicks, kicking underneath them is a pretty difficult option. Thirdly, when Shogun initiates with a body kick, take a page out of his book and kick or sweep the plant leg simultaneously. He can take away power and confidence by punishing the front leg, or by putting Shogun on his butt every time he commits to a kick.
    Last edited by G-Off; 10/27/2009 7:51pm at .
  9. PizDoff is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/29/2009 9:24am

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     Style: Grappling

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    Nice write up and gifs. Everyone likes gifs.
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  10. MMAMickey is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/29/2009 9:51am

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     Style: Boxing.MMA

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    Quote Originally Posted by mike321 View Post
    G-off: Thanks for the second analysis.

    MMAMickey, Massive reduction of the analysis. Need a little more before I get onto that train. How do you see this reducing to that? Please explain. Also, Rashad was certainly not the first fighter to fall to Lyoto's style. And there are a lot of very good fighters in that weightclass.
    I was referring to the 'unorthodox' footwork Machida uses. The evasion in karate is to get the **** away from the guy trying to hit you, and it played straight into a leg kicker's (Rua) hands (shins if you really want to be pedantic). I agree with G-off the main problem was his Bisping-esque moving to the power side however, if machida used more bent arm punches (he owes his straight punching style to karate) we might have been able to perform in clinch range more effectively. At one point he was smothered by Rua against the cage, his punches weren't all that effective but rua's punches were good. He can hadle the limited tools of a boxer but he had trouble with a VERY traditionally based Thai standup style.

    *before yet another person accuses me of hating karate I should probably finally make it known I did shotokan for about 5/6 years sigh*
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