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  1. fsx is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/21/2009 6:37am

    supporting member
     Style: Krav Maga

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    distinction between researcher/scholar and fighter?

    Hello everyone!

    Even if I am a little scared about posting outside Newbietown I think this forum is more appropriate for this hopefully not-totally-useless consideration. I found some similar post with the search function but they didn't answer my question.

    A lot of posts I have read in this great community consider the "full contact spar" as the final proof that the martial artist is a martial artist, as martial arts are about fighting. (heh)

    But the oriental heritage transmitted also many forms, as kata, poomse, tao, and so on, so there are many dojos where these are performed and considered as the true spirit of martial arts, either in a preordinated sequence of movements against an invisible opponent or a predetermined attack/defense with a cooperating partner.

    I have read also that here many consider Ch'i (or Qi or Ki) as fantasy, yet many well known traditional martial arts instructors base their training on that, most like a belief system or self-hypnosis does. So if a belief system is "felt" as positive and/or enriching by its practitioners, good for them, I dare say.

    Even so, I have seen a video in your youtube channel where a MMA pro fighter literally destroys a (seemingly chinese) kung-fu master, who really doesn't even attempt a single attack or a succesful defense against the MMA pro fighter moves and ends lying on the ground with his face totally smacked and bloody, saved only by the towel thrown in the ring.

    Also, I must agree that most Bullshido and McDojos can be probably found in the category of non-sparring training, but my point really is: if form-based training is ineffective against non-cooperative sparring training, why not creating a distinction between formal researchers/scholars and fighters?

    Isn't it like the difference between studying history for personal interest versus enlisting in an ongoing war?

    The problem is that surely there are many non-sparring "martial historians" that pretend to be able to apply the techniques of their forms in a real fight, because their instructors (and probably the instructors of the instructors) made them believe they can. And that's where, in my opinion, bullshido.net comes really useful.

    Cheers
  2. Evil Solvalou is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/21/2009 6:56am


     Style: None

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by fsx View Post
    Also, I must agree that most Bullshido and McDojos can be probably found in the category of non-sparring training, but my point really is: if form-based training is ineffective against non-cooperative sparring training, why not creating a distinction between formal researchers/scholars and fighters?
    To be honest I don't think it really matters, and it would be too difficult anyway. It's hard enough to get two people to even agree on what qualifies someone as a fighter, trying to make a sort of formal distinction would be just about impossible.

    There's the added complication of the LARPers often thinking they're fighters or true warriors or whatever. I once had someone tell me with a straight face that they have the heart of a samurai, while ArseHammer, or what his name was, declared that we should all remember him as a true martial artist who visited us here before mincing out.

    My point is it would be too hard to find definitions of the groups everyone could agree on, let alone dealing with the over simplification of trying to lump so many people with different motivations and idea into one of two groups.
  3. sempaiman is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/21/2009 7:26am


     Style: Mixed-Up Martial Arts

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Bruce Lee is a good example of a researcher as oppposed to a fighter...
  4. Evil Solvalou is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/21/2009 7:30am


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    Ah ****, you said the B word. Now we're going to have to nut riders in here rambling about him being a better fighter than Muhammed Ali and how he was the forefather of MMA.
  5. thorthe power is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/21/2009 7:37am


     Style: Not sure anymore

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    *In before it turns into BL thread*

    And what Evil said.
  6. nifoc is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/21/2009 10:08am


     Style: FMA, MT & BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It's very simple really. If you state that what you are doing is not Martial Arts, and instead practice qigong or "historical reenactment" (or LARP), then I doubt anyone on this site will give a **** about what you do. If you claim to practice to train a fighting art or make claims like warrior/samurai spirit then you will have to back it up.

    This site is dedicated to MA, discussions of history is sometimes brought up, and there are many knowledgable members here, but the heart of the site is about Martial Arts.
  7. Kuma is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/21/2009 10:10am


     Style: blunt trauma

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You study to learn stuff.

    You train to fight.

    Was that so fucking hard?
  8. Iainkelt is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/21/2009 10:13am


     Style: 10thP/BJJ/Wrestling/Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by fsx View Post
    Hello everyone!

    The problem is that surely there are many non-sparring "martial historians" that pretend to be able to apply the techniques of their forms in a real fight, because their instructors (and probably the instructors of the instructors) made them believe they can. And that's where, in my opinion, bullshido.net comes really useful.

    Cheers
    I think you raise an interesting point. I, personally, don't have any problem with people practicing kata, or being interested in the more....mystical aspects of some martial arts. It doesn't do anything for me, but some people have different priorities and want to get other things out of training. Some like it for the physical activity, some do it for relaxation/stress reduction, some like the historic aspect of practicing traditional MAs, and some buy in to the whole "secrets of the universe being revealed to me" mysticism of Chi force blah blah blah. Whatever.

    However, I don't want those people trying to sell me, or anybody else, on the idea that what they do is "fighting" or otherwise applicable to real life sparring or fighting with non compliant partners. Unfortunately, that kind of honesty doesn't sell to the public as well dressing up in costumes and doing parlor tricks to convince people of the legitimacy of your training. I think that is the heart of the problem.

    It comes as no surprise that a lot of people have a bit of a shaky grasp on reality, so instead of just saying up front that what they do isn't really a "martial art" but instead a martial arts themed exercise program they start to fool themselves into believing the program's hype and that is where it gets dangerous. You get people who are convinced that doing a cardio kickboxing class means they know how to kickbox. They don't. Or you get people who believe they know how to fight because they learned a kata. They don't. Or, most disturbing (to me at least), you get people who think they can "walk the streets with no fear" because some jackass wearing a balaclava sold them on some crappy techniques for "teh streets".

    So, bottom line, I think that being into the history or theory of MA is totally respectable so long as you don't try to pass it off as being applicable to today if it clearly isn't. Unfortunately, the number of people who are willing to be honest about their interests and practices are far outweighed by the number of people looking to make money by teaching their "art" to those who don't know any better. The frauds try to blend in with the rest because they think it lends credability to what they do. That is why it's so tough to keep any clear line between the two groups.
  9. BadUglyMagic is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/21/2009 10:33am


     Style: slackerjitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by fsx View Post
    But the oriental heritage transmitted also many forms, as kata, poomse, tao, and so on, so there are many dojos where these are performed and considered as the true spirit of martial arts, either in a preordinated sequence of movements against an invisible opponent or a predetermined attack/defense with a cooperating partner.
    Are you really asking for support to say that asian martial arts without alive training/sparring/practical real competition are equal to MMA of MuayThai, kickboxing, wrestling, and jits?

    Quote Originally Posted by fsx View Post
    I have read also that here many consider Ch'i (or Qi or Ki) as fantasy, yet many well known traditional martial arts instructors base their training on that, most like a belief system or self-hypnosis does. So if a belief system is "felt" as positive and/or enriching by its practitioners, good for them, I dare say.
    It's called "controlled breathing". Even fighters with rifles use it.

    Quote Originally Posted by fsx View Post
    Also, I must agree that most Bullshido and McDojos can be probably found in the category of non-sparring training, but my point really is: if form-based training is ineffective against non-cooperative sparring training, why not creating a distinction between formal researchers/scholars and fighters?
    What about formal researchers/scholars who train against non-cooperative sparring partners. There is at least one on this site. And are you really claiming that any forms based training is ineffective when introduced into a non-cooperative sparring environment?



    typo edit
  10. Happy Panda is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/21/2009 10:47am


     Style: Panda Punch

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by fsx
    Also, I must agree that most Bullshido and McDojos can be probably found in the category of non-sparring training, but my point really is: if form-based training is ineffective against non-cooperative sparring training, why not creating a distinction between formal researchers/scholars and fighters?
    The fighters are the researchers. Mathematicians study math, fighters study fighting, and pretend-fighters study pretend-fighting. If you don't have experience in the field of fighting, any research you do on fighting is probably not going to be very useful to fighters.
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