medival dlt and pins

**willaume** · Posted On: 10/19/2009 5:00am

Hello,
This is what I understand of the DLT medieval way and how it leads to the 2 of the 3 pins.
As SGB-ape has pointed out for the 3rd pin I have interpreted onto the bolloks as in the direction of. That being said that the best I can come up with and is reasonably functional.

If you have any other idea or see any glaring mistake on the DLT or the pins let me know.
As you can see there are things I definitely can improve and someone with a fresh look can sometimes sees something that is really obvious and you miss because you are just too close to the subject too see the forest for the tree.
This ideas is more to pick your brains and it is easier to explain what io mean vith vid than with words

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhjJpK5vLzk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRhsASCgBYg

In the manuscript I am working with:
There is no starting positions or guard mentioned. (There are in other manuscripts)
Getting tied up is something you want to avoid
You systematically strike someone that tries to get into a to a clinch, front bear hug or wrestling hold.
Wrestling is used to bypass weapon, and his to be taken in several opponents and easily available weapons context.

Phil

**willaume** · Posted On: 10/20/2009 3:16am

hello
It the "ringeck" manuscript.
The proper posh name is Mscr.Dresd.C487 from the Dresden Sächsische Landesbibliothek
I have put the relevant passage in the clips but if you think it is better for me to put them here, just let me know.

phil

**Mordschlag** · Posted On: 10/30/2009 11:05am

Good video! Question though: How does one apply this to a situation where two people with weapons start binding?

**Permalost** · Posted On: 10/30/2009 6:45pm

Around 2:30, are you aiming to turn him over in a sort of boston crab position? The dynamic of turning someone over in this way is something I've found tricky. I started playing around with it at one of the throwdowns after Omega showed us how to do a cloverleaf.

**nnate** · Posted On: 10/31/2009 11:54am

This gets the Judo areas of my brain tingling.

If I understand it, tori is trying to force uke's balance backwards by pushing his head backwards.

This could be used to set up a very high amp forward throw combination, especially if the initial move fails.

Basically, if uke resists and pushes forward, tori could use that forward kuzushi to execute a hip throw in the direction direction uke is pushing.

Of course there are better Judoka on this board who could speak more authoritatively on the subject than me.

Edited to add:

Alternativley, to make this a higher percentage move by tugging sharply down or away from uke. If uke responds by pulling away, it woyld make it easier to push uke's head backwards.

**willaume** · Posted On: 11/01/2009 5:21am

Originally Posted by Mordschlag

Good video! Question though: How does one apply this to a situation where two people with weapons start binding?

Hello
Thanks for the comments.
That is in the ringen proper and not ringen am swert (wrestling at the sword)
In ringeck, the main defence against wrestling when fencing is the schnitt
If he rushes in to bypass the shnitt distance, you have durchlauffen and the 5-6 ringen am swert.
But our opponent is giving it to us/forcing it upon us, if you see what I mean.
The only way to enter wrestling on our own terms is by using the verkerer.

I am not sure Ringeck is as keen on wrestling when fencing as some other masters. And that definitely taint the way I see and do things. Not that I think it is the superior an approach but more a tactial choice that I am slanted towards.

For example One of durchlaufen and the second “ringen am swert are not to difficult to turn into DLT.
Now I am not sure that It is a good return on investment given the little force one needs for a sword cut or a thrust , as well your tip on him and stepping on is sword arm is a good enough pin.
So the aiki-otshi, irimi shokumen irim, ikkio/jije garami, shionague/kimura and hip throw seem to be a better options.

Or when I do the verkerer I usually hold/jam his elbow that give me enough time to stab/strike whilst controlling his weapon and I do no not really tend to use it to wrestle.

phil

**willaume** · Posted On: 11/01/2009 7:07am

Originally Posted by CodosDePiedra

Around 2:30, are you aiming to turn him over in a sort of boston crab position? The dynamic of turning someone over in this way is something I've found tricky. I started playing around with it at one of the throwdowns after Omega showed us how to do a cloverleaf.

Hello carlos
No the idea is to jam his neck with his body and give me enough time to get me dagger so I can stab him in the groin.

The boston crab is what I kind of started with but I tough I was too far from the text and you can not really do “as you whish you’re your free hand.
That being said I did not think of the cloverleaf to turn him over though.
YouTube - Cloverleaf submission
I think it is a neater way to finish than what I am doing.

phil

**willaume** · Posted On: 11/01/2009 7:41am

Originally Posted by nnate

This gets the Judo areas of my brain tingling.

If I understand it, tori is trying to force uke's balance backwards by pushing his head backwards.

This could be used to set up a very high amp forward throw combination, especially if the initial move fails.

Basically, if uke resists and pushes forward, tori could use that forward kuzushi to execute a hip throw in the direction direction uke is pushing.

Of course there are better Judoka on this board who could speak more authoritatively on the subject than me.

Edited to add:

Alternativley, to make this a higher percentage move by tugging sharply down or away from uke. If uke responds by pulling away, it woyld make it easier to push uke's head backwards.

hello
Yes I think it is the idea, though as well as the strike, you have the elbow pull, which weakens the overall structure as a similar effect to what you describe.

This tradition is pretty big on fullen (feeling what your opponent is doing)
I think the idea is to go for the head and if that goes away pick the body the legs or the arms. As well there is sort of logical link with a more mobile side of things where it much more redirection of what he gives us.

That being said, I found that the hold /clinch when weapons are available tend to be much more mutually neutralising and rooted.
so pull push is seldmoly enough (hence the elvbow thing with or slightly before the strike)
But the JJ or judo practitioners I played with were not really used to weapons and I am not really used to JJ and Judo so it may very well be a case of all of use being out of our confort zone and playing safe.

May be you could try with some judo friends and see how it goes, basically try to access a dagger (at you side or in the back) or try to punch o kick when you think you can get away with it.
and let us know if you found the same thing as well.

**willaume** · Posted On: 11/02/2009 7:46am

Originally Posted by CodosDePiedra

Around 2:30, are you ...<snip>...to do a cloverleaf.

Sorry I just realised that I did not thank you for you post.
I think it is a very good idea and something that needs to get looked into.

That will work in armour, not the calf crush but the tuning around.
I think it is better that what I do because it does open more of his body to stab at
As well in armour/1v1 you can go for the back pin in M hurmsfeld.

It does not matter so much for armoured/judicial duels but have you tried to do it in a more up right position (as compared to the vid i posted)

Would you mind if I pickup your brain after we tried that on Wednesday
ps
is CodosDePiedra fine as far as credits goes?

**Permalost** · Posted On: 11/02/2009 9:50am

Originally Posted by willaume

Would you mind if I pickup your brain after we tried that on Wednesday
ps
is CodosDePiedra fine as far as credits goes?

yes and yes. The reason I though boston crab was the grip on the legs, and the potential to cause someone a lot of damage (If you really sit into it, it does more than just a calf crush and fits the bill for a technique that could really wreck someone, even in armor).