Self defense for women, a few concerns

**Janusdog** · Posted On: 10/16/2009 12:44pm

I know what Osaka Peach is talking about. I do think bad courses can instill a sense of false competence.

One quibble I have, though, is that the predominance of rape situations are date rapes and involve alcohol or other substances, which impair judgement and pain experience for whoever has taken them.

My sister-in-law took one of those courses. They had a guy dress up in pads and the women just kicked him and punched him. He, of course, was not punching back.

If I only had ten hours to teach other women something, it would be these things:

1) All moves contained therein are just a way of giving you space to escape, not fight.

2) Eye gouge/eye rake/biu gee

3) Taking a couple of punches and how to avoid getting freaked out enough to freeze. *** I think this is the major one.

4) Where not to waste your time hitting.

5) Escaping a wrist grab

6) Get your own goddamn drinks and don't let boys you just met get them for you.

7) NEVER go anywhere with anyone who threatens you, make them assault you right there. Going somewhere else is ALWAYS worse.

That should probably take up 10 hours.

**maofas** · Posted On: 10/16/2009 4:18pm

Originally Posted by permahudef

There will always be 4-hour and 10-hour courses for women's self-defence. We can criticize them like armchair fighters, or we can suggest what they SHOULD be teaching...uh...like armchair fighters...

I'm saying something like "What techniques would you teach a woman if you only had 4-10 hours to train her?" You mentioned "basic striking and grappling techniques that actually works" Which techniques?

Interesting question....let's say we've got 3 days of 3 hours each. Just talking technique and no situational awareness type stuff...

Day 1: Standup
Jab & Cross*
How to cover up vs. punches & fire back.
Palm Strike (upward, straight, round)
Hammerfist
Wrestler's & Thai clinch. Pummeling in the the clinch. Knees from clinch.

Day 2: Ground
Mount & Side Mount**
Guard & Halfguard + one simple sweep
Shrimping
Bridge & Roll
The aforementioned feet on hips with wrist/sleeve control.
Upkicks

Day 3: Review + Teh D3adly***
Thumbs to the eyes
Eye Rake off the uppercut palm strikes
Clapping over the ears
Wrist grab defense
Standing and lying down rape choke defense

*Some people will disagree, but imo, learning jab/cross is key for learning fundamentals of power generation which apply to all techniques. Also, regardless of how shitty they still are as strikers after taking SD crash course, there's only real striking and fake striking and you have to start somewhere. They should at least be able to learn how to put some of their weight into a strike and not just arm flail.

**Why bother? For the sake of drilling, they need to be able to pin each other do the other person can practice shrimp/bridge. Also I'd let have them roll for position, the goal being to pin each other/not get pinned.

***Taught afterwards and only afterwards on the 3rd day of the course (review day) by combining it with the fundamentals they've already learned.

I don't think takedowns should be covered at all. Throwing a stronger person is one of the most technical feats in MA, and it might encourage them to wrestle around with the guy when they should be attempting to pull away and run.

I WOULD have them practice standup wrestling (think Judo randori) however with an instructor just to get used to the idea of someone pushing, pulling, and trying to take them down. Just like I wouldn't teach them footwork and parrying in the striking section, I think it's a waste of time to teach them how to sprawl, but they can at least learn how to keep a solid base while being pushed & pulled and to sink their hips lower when a person is trying to take them down.

I'd strongly encourage them all, before they leave, to join a reputable program (and discuss how to find one), and straight up tell them (especially since I've already got their money!) that they're unlikely to remember everything, much less be able to perform more than a fraction of it under pressure. Assuming you own your own MA program and aren't just a wandering Women's SD instructor, offer them a free month of class.

Oh well, just my 25 cents.

**TheMightyMcClaw** · Posted On: 10/16/2009 5:10pm

Originally Posted by maofas

Interesting question....let's say we've got 3 days of 3 hours each. Just talking technique and no situational awareness type stuff...

Day 1: Standup
Jab & Cross*
How to cover up vs. punches & fire back.
Palm Strike (upward, straight, round)
Hammerfist
Wrestler's & Thai clinch. Pummeling in the the clinch. Knees from clinch.

Uh, what? Aren't standing palm strikes and hammerfists the wrist returns and shiho-nages of striking?

**maofas** · Posted On: 10/16/2009 6:23pm

^
Nope, they're fine techniques. I'm going to go out on a limb and
guess you've never used openhand krotty techniques in sparring.*

IMO, if you're teaching untrained people how to punch, they also need to understand how to apply similar mechanics to a palm, because there's a good chance they're going to bust their hands if they punch someone in the dome.

I'm not even saying, "Don't punch, use palm" (which isn't uncommon in SD classes), I'm saying, "In the event you bust your hands, use palm". Except for the uppercut version. That is just a plain good technique in its own right.

Hammerfist is more situational, but it has several good uses which presumably you would explain and drill since they're paying you money. It's also a very safe technique that someone with small, delicate hands can hit with.

*Assuming some portion of your Karate training, like mine, was "wasted" drilling them on pads & heavy bag already, I suggest picking up a pair of SuperSafe helmets, ditch the gloves, and give those techniques a whirl. Yes, there are a lot of retarded openhand strikes (who knows wtf the Okinawans really used them for), but at least 5 of the non-punch strikes (not including elbow) are good solid techniques and don't require retarded amounts of conditioning.

**Wounded Ronin** · Posted On: 10/16/2009 6:52pm

Originally Posted by Osaka peach

When I first started out boxing this is the first thing I realized: since much bad men throw telegraphed haymaykers all you have to do is to one-two them in the face as soon as you see them take their arm back. Later I discovered it was the core of the way of the intercepting fist :icon_surp

as far as knockout power goes, I rarely spar full contact anymore but I need someone to hold the heavy bag or it moves around so much I have to replace it in it's original position after every 3-4 punches :happy7: I once went to the gym with a friend and she was throwing her so-called kung fu moves on the bag ( basically all out of snake in the eagle's shadow and drunken master lol) and when I pointed out that the bag was not even moving an inch she replied ¨ well that's because I know how to control my power properly¨ :BangHead:

Hilarious.

**kikoolol** · Posted On: 10/17/2009 12:50am

Originally Posted by Osaka peach

Hi there!

Since a was a fan of martial arts since I was little, and having trained in boxing for 2 years in high school, I was pretty confident that I did not need women self defense lessons and such. But out of curiosity I asked a friend who did study self defense for women at college and I was pretty disapointed with the stuff she came up with. Overall, it's pretty much the same old things they teach in some karate and kung fu classes, mainly how to defend against a knife, a choke, a hold etc but the problem is that everything is done is super slow motion without any sense of realism. They also teach purse blows and umbrella thrusts to the throat, which I honestly think are pretty ridiculous. My main concern is that those course create a false sense of confidence and when a guy jumps on you to sexually assaults you it's to late to realize that you can't defend yourself at all.

I did the same trick bruce lee used to do in karate champioship, I said to my friend what she would do if someone punched her, and she said she would block it, and then do this and that and that in a few seconds the assaillant would be out cold. Then I told her to try to block one of my punch, and I threw about a dozen JKD lead punch in front of her face and of course she couldn't see anything coming even by knowing where and which blow I'd be using.

I don't believe in such a thing as women self defence, I think we are able to do just as good as males and learn to defend ourselves with real fighting methods such as boxing, muay thai, JKD, brazilian jiu jitsu etc and we don't need a diluted, slow and unrealistic form of self defence made especially for us. Get real girls!

'sup. Nice to meet a fellow Quebecer (from the same city, no less). I detect hints of typical French ESL mistakes in your writing so I assume you'll know what I'm talking about in the following.

When you say that your friend took self-defense classes in college, do you mean in CÉGEP? Some CÉGEPs offer self-defense (fr. "autodéfense") as a credited course towards physical education. My current CÉGEP does not (I took fencing), but I have been to one that did for a short while. The reason why I am thinking this is that if you meant "university" (as in Laval), you would have said "university" due to its closeness with the French equivalent. So I'm thinking CÉGEP.

I have sampled the quality of such. It is indeed pretty bad. The danger is that as these classes are offered as credited courses, that the students come to believe in this in the same way that they believe what their math teacher tells them when he's talking about ways to do algebra. I would not hold it as a slight against her character that your friend was so confident in whatever training she had. The fact that a state-funded CÉGEP seems to endorse the curriculum by offering it as a credited class lends a good weight to its supposed functionality, perhaps moreso than if she had been paying for the class from her own pocket. From what I have read this weight is unwarranted.

Unfortunately, people in our beautiful province are very gullible when it comes to martial arts. I have often heard on the radio stories about parents enrolling their kids in WTF taekwondo or similar to teach them "self-defense" when judo and boxing teachers in the province are numerous and often have programs tailored for teens and kids. There is no doubt that the civil servants running CÉGEP may have the same misconceptions, except apparently about RBSD.

Tell your friend to look past her training, maybe get her to contest the course (the great thing about CÉGEP is that if one wants to whine about something related to the education one gets there, there's always someone paid to listen). For her remaining credits, if she goes to the CÉGEP I think she goes to, she could take Judo.

If I have made a wrong assumption, disregard the last paragraph.

Incidentally - where do you train JKD? I'm a pure judoka through and through ; might be in the market for a striking art one day.

**JKDChick** · Posted On: 10/17/2009 4:48am

Originally Posted by Osaka peach

I agree that I would'nt be able to KO trained bulky male fighters, but I probably could send an average sexual offender out cold. Or I hope so :thumbsup:

No.

You can't. Neither could I and I'm guessing from your description I'm physically more powerful than you are.

90% of the GUYS (trained or otherwise) can't knock someone out cold without holding them still and just pounding on them for a fair while.

I actually find you thinking this is the prime example of dangerous thoughts in female fighters. You cannot knock someone cold. All you can do is react swiftly and with enough violence that said offender cannot get his hands on you and then run like you just called Ryan Gracie a sissy. THAT IS ALL.

Also, JKD is just a method of training any martial art. In many way, with the advent of MMA, ALL cage fighters do JKD.

**Larus marinus** · Posted On: 10/17/2009 5:11pm

Originally Posted by JKDChick

No.

You can't. Neither could I and I'm guessing from your description I'm physically more powerful than you are.

90% of the GUYS (trained or otherwise) can't knock someone out cold without holding them still and just pounding on them for a fair while.

I actually find you thinking this is the prime example of dangerous thoughts in female fighters. You cannot knock someone cold. All you can do is react swiftly and with enough violence that said offender cannot get his hands on you and then run like you just called Ryan Gracie a sissy. THAT IS ALL.

Also, JKD is just a method of training any martial art. In many way, with the advent of MMA, ALL cage fighters do JKD.

I really wish that people could get away from this 'stand your ground and kick his ass' mindset when it comes to self defence. Women, men, kids - I think it's there to an extent with all shapes and sizes.

I don't think it's just because of the crappy self-defence teachers either. Seems to me that folks just default to that way of thinking when trouble starts. Maybe it's movies and TV that put it into our heads, or it's our sense of justice wishing to see the bad 'guy get what he deserves' or maybe it goes much, much deeper into the human psyche than that - I dunno...

The way I look at it is that, assuming that you're a regular sort of person who doesn't get into many streetfights or go out robbing and raping strangers of a night, if someone decides to attack you at random on the street, then it's *highly likely* that he's a more experienced fighter than you are and much more dangerous, for having psyched himself up to do it - whether he's officially been trained in anything or not. Always assume that this is the case - and that he's more than likely prepared to go much further than is considered sane to get what he wants, and do your best to get the hell away from him - even if it means doing something that might hurt your pride and make you feel like a wuss afterwards.

Better that than be dead, or violated, or beaten into a bloody pulp because you assumed a stance and tried to get the sucker with your Foo-jutsu or Bar-do.

It takes a certain mindset to initiate an unprovoked attack like that - quite a scary one, actually. The chances are that he's done it before and gotten away with it too. Not someone you want to be rolling around on the pavement with.

**Osaka peach** · Posted On: 10/18/2009 4:26pm

Originally Posted by JKDChick

No.

You can't. Neither could I and I'm guessing from your description I'm physically more powerful than you are.

90% of the GUYS (trained or otherwise) can't knock someone out cold without holding them still and just pounding on them for a fair while.

I actually find you thinking this is the prime example of dangerous thoughts in female fighters. You cannot knock someone cold. All you can do is react swiftly and with enough violence that said offender cannot get his hands on you and then run like you just called Ryan Gracie a sissy. THAT IS ALL.

Also, JKD is just a method of training any martial art. In many way, with the advent of MMA, ALL cage fighters do JKD.

Well, I did knock a guy out in boxing sparring...

**Osaka peach** · Posted On: 10/18/2009 4:41pm

Originally Posted by Larus marinus

I really wish that people could get away from this 'stand your ground and kick his ass' mindset when it comes to self defence. Women, men, kids - I think it's there to an extent with all shapes and sizes.

I don't think it's just because of the crappy self-defence teachers either. Seems to me that folks just default to that way of thinking when trouble starts. Maybe it's movies and TV that put it into our heads, or it's our sense of justice wishing to see the bad 'guy get what he deserves' or maybe it goes much, much deeper into the human psyche than that - I dunno...

The way I look at it is that, assuming that you're a regular sort of person who doesn't get into many streetfights or go out robbing and raping strangers of a night, if someone decides to attack you at random on the street, then it's *highly likely* that he's a more experienced fighter than you are and much more dangerous, for having psyched himself up to do it - whether he's officially been trained in anything or not. Always assume that this is the case - and that he's more than likely prepared to go much further than is considered sane to get what he wants, and do your best to get the hell away from him - even if it means doing something that might hurt your pride and make you feel like a wuss afterwards.

Better that than be dead, or violated, or beaten into a bloody pulp because you assumed a stance and tried to get the sucker with your Foo-jutsu or Bar-do.

It takes a certain mindset to initiate an unprovoked attack like that - quite a scary one, actually. The chances are that he's done it before and gotten away with it too. Not someone you want to be rolling around on the pavement with.

Of course, but if for any reason you can't flee, or if he just runs faster than you, you must have something up your sleeve to avoid the worst. And that's why I train :icon_chee And I think rapist are not hard-boiled streetfighters, they are recluse obsessive men feeding on the so called helplessness of women, I believe (rightly, I hope) that a woman CAN get out of a rape scenario. And since I'm not a particularely fast runner, I would probably have to do some damage to open up my chance for escape.