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  1. permahudef is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/14/2009 4:58pm


     Style: BJJ/MuayThai/Wrestling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Perhaps the best question to ask now is "What would be the most effective X hour women's self-defence course?"
  2. Osaka peach is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/14/2009 5:34pm


     Style: Boxing/JKD

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    Quote Originally Posted by permahudef View Post
    Perhaps the best question to ask now is "What would be the most effective X hour women's self-defence course?"
    As I said before, I believe the very concept of a self-defence for women course is flawed. Self defence is no different if you are a female or a male, a muay thai low kick is a muay thai low kick, a guard position is a guard position, a one-two is a one-two etc. The only difference I can think off is how to defend a rape scenario, wich women are much more likely to be the target off. Then again, I think BJJ would cut it in this situation. So...

    First, get all the silly ridiculous moves out the window (purse blows, umbrella strikes etc)

    Second, teach how a physical intercation really turns out in the real world by using non-compliant training

    Third, teach basic striking and grappling techniques that actually works

    Fouth, teach students not to get those techniques get to their heads and make them realize that fighting for your life is not a game

    I think self defense is not a matter of taking a 10 hours course, it's a matter of long term dedication. there's no shortcut, either for men or women
  3. permahudef is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/15/2009 8:02am


     Style: BJJ/MuayThai/Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Osaka peach View Post
    As I said before, I believe the very concept of a self-defence for women course is flawed. Self defence is no different if you are a female or a male, a muay thai low kick is a muay thai low kick, a guard position is a guard position, a one-two is a one-two etc. The only difference I can think off is how to defend a rape scenario, wich women are much more likely to be the target off. Then again, I think BJJ would cut it in this situation. So...

    First, get all the silly ridiculous moves out the window (purse blows, umbrella strikes etc)

    Second, teach how a physical intercation really turns out in the real world by using non-compliant training

    Third, teach basic striking and grappling techniques that actually works

    Fouth, teach students not to get those techniques get to their heads and make them realize that fighting for your life is not a game

    I think self defense is not a matter of taking a 10 hours course, it's a matter of long term dedication. there's no shortcut, either for men or women
    Hmm...perhaps I should rephrase...
    GIVEN that you cannot teach a human to be a proficient fighter in 4-10 hours of training, what would be the least wasteful way to attempt to teach women some self defence in a 4 hour course? 10 hour course?

    There will always be 4-hour and 10-hour courses for women's self-defence. We can criticize them like armchair fighters, or we can suggest what they SHOULD be teaching...uh...like armchair fighters...

    I'm saying something like "What techniques would you teach a woman if you only had 4-10 hours to train her?" You mentioned "basic striking and grappling techniques that actually works" Which techniques?
    Surely you can teach them a few things in that time
    -How to stand up from their back/guard
    -Upkicks from back
    -double collar-tie, knees (are smaller women strong enough to do this against a larger male? Is there a better way to keep the distance? Is the risk of the man catching the knee worth throwing a few knees? IDK)
    -Maybe a jab-cross? Maybe at that range, they should just run.
    -Spaz and yell? Ninja-kitty? (Eye gouge, claw, kick, hit, "just fight back")
    -"takedown" defense? How do rapists generally take people to the ground? Probably not a well-executed greco-roman or judo takedown/throw. Do they just grab and lean? Can you just have a guy off the street come in and try to take the women down, while the women just fight back against an untrained 'attacker' actually trying?
    -tiip and run? Forget the tiip? If they are at that range, they should just run?

    I'm just interested in what people suggest, given the inherent flaw in trying to teach people in such a short amount of time. I guess the logic being that women will sign up for self-defense courses nomatter the quality. So the options are
    a) Self-defense that teaches them crap, calling it teh_d34dly. Giving them a false sense of security and possibly harming their chance of escape.
    b) Self-defense that teaches a SHRED of effectiveness, calling it a SHRED of effectiveness. Giving them a realistic view of their skills, and only helping their chance to escape, even if it's just a little.
  4. PointyShinyBurn is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/15/2009 8:24am

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     Style: BJJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Osaka peach View Post
    I agree that I would'nt be able to KO trained bulky male fighters, but I probably could send an average sexual offender out cold. Or I hope so :thumbsup:
    I'm not saying smaller people can't develop KO power (Given I'm 5'6'' and about 150 pounds I'd hope they can as well), I'm just saying it takes more time than a short self-defence course will provide.

    FWIW, in my experience the average un-trained guy when told to 'punch' throws a massive, telegraphed, head-down, haymaker which would hurt in the statistically unlikely circumstance of it actually connecting whereas the average girl tends to throw a straight and reasonably accurate arm-punch carrying roughly enough power to annoy or slightly bruise.
  5. Nicko1 is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/15/2009 8:58am


     

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    Quote Originally Posted by permahudef View Post
    So the options are
    a) Self-defense that teaches them crap, calling it teh_d34dly. Giving them a false sense of security and possibly harming their chance of escape.
    b) Self-defense that teaches a SHRED of effectiveness, calling it a SHRED of effectiveness. Giving them a realistic view of their skills, and only helping their chance to escape, even if it's just a little.
    Option b) thank you. False confidence can be more dangerous than none.

    Whilst I think that this topic may be worthy of discussion, it probably should not be discussed here. A MABS thread would only be appropriate if a specific instructor (like the one colonelpong2 mentioned) was under investigation. I mean, where could this discussion possibly go? I just don't see what could be achieved in this thread.

    Also, if we were in YMAS, Lebell could tell us about the Lesbian Karate Cult Conspiracy that is behind all women-only MA programmes. And some sock-puppet could tout Captain Chris' DVDs that "download" self-defence techniques directly into the brain. And some Chunner troll could spout off about how the FOOM is perfect for women...fun for the whole family.
  6. Larus marinus is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/15/2009 9:43am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Nothing - yet

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicko1 View Post
    Option b) thank you. False confidence can be more dangerous than none.

    Whilst I think that this topic may be worthy of discussion, it probably should not be discussed here. A MABS thread would only be appropriate if a specific instructor (like the one colonelpong2 mentioned) was under investigation. I mean, where could this discussion possibly go? I just don't see what could be achieved in this thread.

    Also, if we were in YMAS, Lebell could tell us about the Lesbian Karate Cult Conspiracy that is behind all women-only MA programmes. And some sock-puppet could tout Captain Chris' DVDs that "download" self-defence techniques directly into the brain. And some Chunner troll could spout off about how the FOOM is perfect for women...fun for the whole family.
    The Chun? Na - you'd have to be a complete fool not to realize that Koga Ninjutsu is the way to go.

    Their women (aka. kunoichi) are far too deadly to defend themselves on the street.

    Be careful not to be taken in and misled by those Iga-ryu bastard pretenders though...
  7. permahudef is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/15/2009 6:26pm


     Style: BJJ/MuayThai/Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicko1 View Post
    Whilst I think that this topic may be worthy of discussion, it probably should not be discussed here. A MABS thread would only be appropriate if a specific instructor (like the one colonelpong2 mentioned) was under investigation. I mean, where could this discussion possibly go? I just don't see what could be achieved in this thread.
    Oops! Didn't realize where this thread was. nvm my posts.
  8. littleoldme is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/16/2009 5:45am


     Style: bagua

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    Quote Originally Posted by Larus marinus View Post
    The Chun? Na - you'd have to be a complete fool not to realize that Koga Ninjutsu is the way to go.

    Their women (aka. kunoichi) are far too deadly to defend themselves on the street.

    Be careful not to be taken in and misled by those Iga-ryu bastard pretenders though...

    naaah

    It's got to be Kixa central power FTW

    Learn how to defend yourself against rapists using breathing techniques

    http://www.kixa-international.com/page17.html

    You also get to punch iron plates until your hands look like potatoes, which is erm, useful. Possibly

    Or something
  9. Osaka peach is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/16/2009 11:55am


     Style: Boxing/JKD

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by permahudef View Post
    Hmm...perhaps I should rephrase...
    GIVEN that you cannot teach a human to be a proficient fighter in 4-10 hours of training, what would be the least wasteful way to attempt to teach women some self defence in a 4 hour course? 10 hour course?

    There will always be 4-hour and 10-hour courses for women's self-defence. We can criticize them like armchair fighters, or we can suggest what they SHOULD be teaching...uh...like armchair fighters...

    I'm saying something like "What techniques would you teach a woman if you only had 4-10 hours to train her?" You mentioned "basic striking and grappling techniques that actually works" Which techniques?
    Surely you can teach them a few things in that time
    -How to stand up from their back/guard
    -Upkicks from back
    -double collar-tie, knees (are smaller women strong enough to do this against a larger male? Is there a better way to keep the distance? Is the risk of the man catching the knee worth throwing a few knees? IDK)
    -Maybe a jab-cross? Maybe at that range, they should just run.
    -Spaz and yell? Ninja-kitty? (Eye gouge, claw, kick, hit, "just fight back")
    -"takedown" defense? How do rapists generally take people to the ground? Probably not a well-executed greco-roman or judo takedown/throw. Do they just grab and lean? Can you just have a guy off the street come in and try to take the women down, while the women just fight back against an untrained 'attacker' actually trying?
    -tiip and run? Forget the tiip? If they are at that range, they should just run?

    I'm just interested in what people suggest, given the inherent flaw in trying to teach people in such a short amount of time. I guess the logic being that women will sign up for self-defense courses nomatter the quality. So the options are
    a) Self-defense that teaches them crap, calling it teh_d34dly. Giving them a false sense of security and possibly harming their chance of escape.
    b) Self-defense that teaches a SHRED of effectiveness, calling it a SHRED of effectiveness. Giving them a realistic view of their skills, and only helping their chance to escape, even if it's just a little.

    Well I think we all know the answer already to what are the effective striking and grappling techniques... A muay thai course on striking would probably be the fastest way to teach effective striking techniques without losing too much time on theory (as JKD unfortunately sometimes tends to overanalyse everything to the xth degree) I think it is likely that a male offender would try to close in and the muay thai clinch'n knees would be an awesome and painful answer to this.:icon_thum A well delivered low roundhouse can buy enough time to successfully escape, and if the offender isn't trained at all it will inder his running speed. Elbows or punches to the face could be used also. As for grappling technique, I have no expertise at all on grappling so I don't really know wich are the best and easiest techniques to learn. But then again I must stress out that a 10 hours course will NEVER cut it as far as self defense goes. You can teach the mechanics of proper punching, kiking, elbowing, kneeing in 10 hours but the students will have to throw them thousands of time to get effective, and if they are too lazy to do so then don't even bother taking up self defense courses in the first place. :evil6:
  10. Osaka peach is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/16/2009 12:07pm


     Style: Boxing/JKD

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    Quote Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn View Post
    I'm not saying smaller people can't develop KO power (Given I'm 5'6'' and about 150 pounds I'd hope they can as well), I'm just saying it takes more time than a short self-defence course will provide.

    FWIW, in my experience the average un-trained guy when told to 'punch' throws a massive, telegraphed, head-down, haymaker which would hurt in the statistically unlikely circumstance of it actually connecting whereas the average girl tends to throw a straight and reasonably accurate arm-punch carrying roughly enough power to annoy or slightly bruise.

    When I first started out boxing this is the first thing I realized: since much bad men throw telegraphed haymaykers all you have to do is to one-two them in the face as soon as you see them take their arm back. Later I discovered it was the core of the way of the intercepting fist :icon_surp

    as far as knockout power goes, I rarely spar full contact anymore but I need someone to hold the heavy bag or it moves around so much I have to replace it in it's original position after every 3-4 punches :happy7: I once went to the gym with a friend and she was throwing her so-called kung fu moves on the bag ( basically all out of snake in the eagle's shadow and drunken master lol) and when I pointed out that the bag was not even moving an inch she replied ¨ well that's because I know how to control my power properly¨ :BangHead:
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