Do-jime / Body Triangle

**Shuma-Gorath** · Posted On: 2/03/2004 10:45pm

After taking someone's back today and digging my hooks in under his waist, I was unable to get his arms or neck free for a good submission. However, as we slid around I found myself with one foreleg under his stomach and the other outside. Being unable to come up with something better, I figure-4'ed my legs and squeezed, resulting in an immediate tap.

After getting up, my opponent (who is higher ranked than me by at least a year) told me that what I had done (a body squeeze) has been illegal for a long time. Why has Do-jime been outlawed? I thought "choking" the abdominal muscles would be much less dangerous than choking or strangling the neck, since it's a large muscle group instead of an artery or wind passage. This is also the submission (or something like it) that Kimura used to render Helio unconcious, so I'd think Judo would want to keep it in the repertoire of a typical student?

I also apparently "broke the plane of the back" earlier in the match by pulling on the arm while still pinning the back, but he said he was expecting it and wasn't hurt. I still felt like an asshole :o

So, thoughts on body chokes anyone?

**infidel** · Posted On: 2/03/2004 11:39pm

i have no idea, but i'd like to know, so i'm bumping this

**Nid** · Posted On: 2/03/2004 11:49pm

Funny, I was just browsing some techniques today and I just discovered the body choke for the first time. Looks cool. Good question. I'd also like to know the answer.

Bump.

**mikus** · Posted On: 2/03/2004 11:58pm

**** I JUST LEFT A LONG ANSWER.

You can time it to cinch it in tighter and tighter right after the exhale. If you have particularly strong legs and do this as hard as you can, you can seriously damage internal organs and/or break ribs. The problem is that there is no point at which you tap because you know that damage is about to be done.

If you do the neck scissors and twist at the same time you can seriously damage vertebrae.

Judging from old judo and catchwrestling pictures, head/neck scissors used to be very popular.

**Shuma-Gorath** · Posted On: 2/04/2004 12:07am

I was told not to scissor the neck because I could break something. I also don't neckcrank outside of Judo class because when they're done to me they stick around for at least a day and hurt like Hell. What little sense of empathy I have also keeps me from doing air chokes unless I can't dig deep enough for a blood strangle.

As for body chokes, they don't sound or feel like they "go on" suddenly like knee/ankle locks and that a person would realize they are being suffocated and have ample time to tap. Helio also woke up after Kimura released the body choke, which leads me to believe he cut off one of the important arteries in the back.
Then again, this is fucking Kimura we're talking about here; I don't think anything he did translates well to my 68-kilo yellow belt ass.

**willy** · Posted On: 2/04/2004 12:51am

judo rules-

figure 4 on body = legal

squeezing the body from closed guard ie. straightening the legs and pushing in =illeagal.
or so my instructor tells me

**mikus** · Posted On: 2/04/2004 1:11am

Yeah I think the figure 4 is legal, but if you squeeze them into submission that is illegal. You can even put some pressure into the closed guard, you just have to make sure the ref doesn't notice.

**Beatdown Richie** · Posted On: 2/04/2004 9:41am

Does anyone know what the deal is in BJJ and submission grappling tourneys? Is the body scissor allowed there?
I'm not sure if I would tap to it, but it does feel extremely uncomfortable, and it looks like an easy add-on to the closed-guard game.

**Crapfestival** · Posted On: 2/04/2004 10:12am

Originally posted by Beatdown Richie
Does anyone know what the deal is in BJJ and submission grappling tourneys? Is the body scissor allowed there?
I'm not sure if I would tap to it, but it does feel extremely uncomfortable, and it looks like an easy add-on to the closed-guard game.

I dont know about in gi, but in no gi it is all legal. Neck cranks, heel hooks, head scissors, any type of compression hold. Aside from attacking their fingers, toes or orifices... all submissions are legal.

Viva Submission grappling, no limitations!

**Crapfestival** · Posted On: 2/04/2004 11:26am

Illegal moves in what?

Dont ask an open ended question and expect people to go research what style you are talking about, what moves arent allowed, and then go and search out pictures and descriptions. Do some looking on your own, you can find anything with google.