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  1. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/03/2009 11:20am

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well, if you practiced in the 80's you'd know about the lawsuit between Hiang and Sin. He can copyright a name the forms are another matter entirely. We will see.
  2. 1palm is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/03/2009 11:27am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: shaolin do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've been told some stories about that lawsuit. I can see how he can copywrite the name, the ranking requirements, basically the structure of the teaching method. But he's saying they can't even teach the forms. I know for a fact that some of the material that sin teaches was first taught by master hiang. I also know some instructors locally that aren't associated with sin that still teach, my instructor included. I guess their not that big of a threat financially.
  3. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/03/2009 11:33am

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    9 viable schools that make money vs 2-3 rogues? Not even close. Copyright IMO is a way to scare people into opting out. If you aren't financially secure, like the Soards, then you can't handle a frivolous lawsuit. So, most fade away and are quiet.
  4. 1palm is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/03/2009 11:39am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: shaolin do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    agreed.
  5. krsd is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/03/2009 12:17pm


     Style: Kungfu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by 1palm View Post
    I've been told some stories about that lawsuit. I can see how he can copywrite the name, the ranking requirements, basically the structure of the teaching method.
    Actually he could have trademarked the name, (filed it as a federal business name) but I've never seen any indication that he did, and at this point I would think there are too many other people using the name that are independent businesses to put the cat back in the bag.

    As for ranking requirements and structure of teaching method, that would probably be covered under patent, but again no evidence of that.

    The only thing that copyright could possibly apply to would be the choreography of the forms, but that is only true if he made them up and they weren't from the shaolin temple, so kindof a catch-22 there. If they are as old as has been said (multiple separate threads discussing that possibility) then they would be in the public domain and therefore not copyrightable.

    Items that copyright could apply to would be (assuming it meats the other criteria such as creation date among other things):

    • the belt certificates
    • the training manual (though that looks like it may be frought with copyright violations of its own from a quick look through it)
    • advertising materials
    • photos that they have taken (photos taken of them are copyrighted by the photographer, not the subject)
    • videos that they have created (videos taken of them are copyrighted by the photographer/camera-poerson, not the subject)
    • And any other artistic expressions in a fixed medium.

    The threat of lawsuit over copyright is definitely pretty intimidating because copyright law can get complicated, especially where documentation as to the creator of the artistic work is scarce, or multiple creators are involved. Though that it is not commonly understood what it does or does not apply to makes it a pretty intimidating threat as well... at least until you run into someone willing to do the research and educate themselves (or hire a good lawyer). Then the paper tiger pretty much falls apart.
    Last edited by krsd; 10/03/2009 12:33pm at .
  6. Nicko1 is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/03/2009 12:34pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by krsd View Post
    Actually he could have trademarked the name, (filed it as a federal business name) but I've never seen any indication that he did, and at this point I would think there are too many other people using the name that are independent businesses to put the cat back in the bag.
    Copyright does not require registration. It is inherent in the act of creating something. Registering the name would make a court case easier. But...

    The only thing that copyright could possibly apply to would be the choreography of the forms, but that is only true if he made them up and they weren't from the shaolin temple, so kindof a catch-22 there. If they are as old as has been said (multiple separate threads discussing that possibility) then they would be in the public domain and therefore not copyrightable.
    ...this is indeed a sticky situation. Looks like the copyright can't be proven without invalidating the lineage claims. I have to admit, it's hard to imagine anyone thinking they were valid now so maybe there's not much to lose.
  7. Red Staff is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/03/2009 1:09pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Shaolin Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Having taken a little time, asking a few questions here and there I've come to a few conclusions.......and many question.

    Conclusions:

    Things at CSC are broke and need fixing
    Many, many people are disatisfied with how things are run
    David Soard did an immoral and unethical thing
    There have been many mistakes made on both sides

    Questions:

    I've just read that letter and the sex scandal seems to be a very minor part of the reasons for the disassociation. Why wait until now to do it? Was the scandal used as a weapon?

    Question for the Soards: Why the silence treatment about all of this? You do know this is just making you look guilty as hell.

    Why was the one 4th degree black belt in Boulder kicked out of the art? Especially since he was not directly involved. For that matter how did he get so involved in the first place and why?

    **********

    These are just a few questions. In any case I try to be as fair as I can to both sides. Master David hasn't said a whole lot but he has made it known that this is all because on control of the schools. To be honest that letter sort of supports David's argument.

    I'll just close by saying that a lot of people knew the Soards were not exactly the most honorable people in the world especially in their marriage vows. Also, in my opinion David is not exactly the smartest man who ever lived. Wouldn't it have been so easy to get the man in a situation such as the one he finds himself in now?
  8. taichi64pakua is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/03/2009 11:57pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: ima

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield...ate=77dgv9.2.1

    Word Mark
    GRANDMASTER SIN KWANG THE SHAOLIN DO
    Translations
    SHAOLIN DO is the name of a style of martial arts.
    Goods and Services
    IC 041. US 100 101 107. G & S: martial arts instruction. FIRST USE: 19781015. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19850615
    Mark Drawing Code
    (3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS
    Design Search Code
    07.01.06 - Other houses
    26.11.01 - Rectangles as carriers or rectangles as single or multiple line borders
    26.11.21 - Rectangles that are completely or partially shaded
    Serial Number
    78374677
    Filing Date
    February 26, 2004
    Current Filing Basis
    1A
    Original Filing Basis
    1A
    Published for Opposition
    June 28, 2005
    Registration Number
    2997293
    Registration Date
    September 20, 2005
    Owner
    (REGISTRANT) The, Sin Kwang INDIVIDUAL UNITED STATES 11542 N. Poema Pl. #103 Chatsworth CALIFORNIA 91311
    Attorney of Record
    Craig O. Correll
    Disclaimer
    NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE SHAOLIN DO APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN
    Type of Mark
    SERVICE MARK
    Register
    PRINCIPAL
    Other Data
    The name GRANDMASTER SIN KWANG THE identifies a living individual whose consent is of record.
    Live/Dead Indicator
    LIVE

    Thank you for your request. Here are the latest results from the TARR web server.
    This page was generated by the TARR system on 2006-03-10 04:49:06 ET

    Serial Number: 78374677

    Registration Number: 2997293

    Mark


    (words only): GRANDMASTER SIN KWANG THE SHAOLIN DO

    Standard Character claim: No

    Current Status: Registered.

    Date of Status: 2005-09-20

    Filing Date: 2004-02-26

    Transformed into a National Application: No

    Registration Date: 2005-09-20

    Register: Principal

    Law Office Assigned: LAW OFFICE 113

    If you are the applicant or applicant's attorney and have questions about this file, please contact the Trademark Assistance Center at TrademarkAssistanceCenter@uspto.gov__Current Location: 650 -Publication And Issue Section__Date In Location: 2005-09-20_

    LAST APPLICANT(S)/OWNER(S) OF RECORD

    1. The, Sin Kwang

    Address:
    The, Sin Kwang
    (address deleted by me ... if you want sin the's address it is public info but you will need to get it yourself)
    Legal Entity Type: Individual
    Country of Citizenship: United States
    Phone Number: 818 341 6171
    Fax Number: 818 341 6171


    GOODS AND/OR SERVICES

    International Class: 041
    martial arts instruction
    First Use Date: 1978-10-15
    First Use in Commerce Date: 1985-06-15

    Basis: 1(a)


    ADDITIONAL INFORMATION

    Disclaimer: SHAOLIN DO

    Name Portrait Consent: The name GRANDMASTER SIN KWANG THE identifies a living individual whose consent is of record.

    Translation: SHAOLIN DO is the name of a style of martial arts.

    Design Search Code(s):
    07.01.06 - Other houses
    26.11.01 - Rectangles as carriers or rectangles as single or multiple line borders
    26.11.21 - Rectangles that are completely or partially shaded


    MADRID PROTOCOL INFORMATION

    (NOT AVAILABLE)


    PROSECUTION HISTORY

    2005-09-20 - Registered - Principal Register

    2005-06-28 - Published for opposition

    2005-06-08 - Notice of publication

    2005-03-23 - Law Office Publication Review Completed

    2005-03-22 - Assigned To LIE

    2005-03-17 - Approved for Pub - Principal Register (Initial exam)

    2005-03-17 - Amendment From Applicant Entered

    2005-03-14 - Communication received from applicant

    2005-03-14 - FAX RECEIVED

    2004-09-17 - Examiner's Amendment And/Or Priority Action E-Mailed

    2004-09-17 - Examiners Amendment And/Or Priority Action - Completed

    2004-09-15 - Case file assigned to examining attorney

    2004-03-15 - New Application Entered In Tram


    CORRESPONDENCE INFORMATION

    Correspondent
    Craig O. Correll (Attorney of record)

    Craig O. Correll
    CRAIG O CORRELL ATTORNEY AT LAW
    4245 SUNNYHILL DR
    CARLSBAD CA 92008-3647

    Phone Number: 760 434 6800
    Fax Number: 760 434 0808



    ===================================

    http://www.loc.gov/cgi-bin/formproce...right/locis.pl

    (Combined Search)
    Search For: TITL/SHAOLIN DO
    Item 1 of 1

    1. Registration Number: PAu-1-493-404
    Title: Shaolin do.
    Description: videocassette.
    Note: Cataloged from appl.
    Claimant: Sin Kwang The
    Created: 1980
    Registered: 9Aug90
    Author on Application: Sin Kwang The.
    Previous Related Version: Martial arts movements preexisting.
    Claim Limit: NEW MATTER: selection & ordering of exercises.
    Miscellaneous: C.O. corres.
    Special Codes: 3/D
  9. taichi64pakua is offline

    Featherweight

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    Jan 2007
    Posts
    19

    Posted On:
    10/03/2009 11:58pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: ima

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    http://tess2.uspto.gov/bin/showfield...ate=77dgv9.2.1

    Word Mark
    GRANDMASTER SIN KWANG THE SHAOLIN DO
    Translations
    SHAOLIN DO is the name of a style of martial arts.
    Goods and Services
    IC 041. US 100 101 107. G & S: martial arts instruction. FIRST USE: 19781015. FIRST USE IN COMMERCE: 19850615
    Mark Drawing Code
    (3) DESIGN PLUS WORDS, LETTERS, AND/OR NUMBERS
    Design Search Code
    07.01.06 - Other houses
    26.11.01 - Rectangles as carriers or rectangles as single or multiple line borders
    26.11.21 - Rectangles that are completely or partially shaded
    Serial Number
    78374677
    Filing Date
    February 26, 2004
    Current Filing Basis
    1A
    Original Filing Basis
    1A
    Published for Opposition
    June 28, 2005
    Registration Number
    2997293
    Registration Date
    September 20, 2005
    Owner
    (REGISTRANT) The, Sin Kwang INDIVIDUAL UNITED STATES Chatsworth CALIFORNIA 91311
    Attorney of Record
    Craig O. Correll
    Disclaimer
    NO CLAIM IS MADE TO THE EXCLUSIVE RIGHT TO USE SHAOLIN DO APART FROM THE MARK AS SHOWN
    Type of Mark
    SERVICE MARK
    Register
    PRINCIPAL
    Other Data
    The name GRANDMASTER SIN KWANG THE identifies a living individual whose consent is of record.
    Live/Dead Indicator
    LIVE

    Thank you for your request. Here are the latest results from the TARR web server.
    This page was generated by the TARR system on 2006-03-10 04:49:06 ET

    Serial Number: 78374677

    Registration Number: 2997293

    Mark


    (words only): GRANDMASTER SIN KWANG THE SHAOLIN DO

    Standard Character claim: No

    Current Status: Registered.

    Date of Status: 2005-09-20

    Filing Date: 2004-02-26

    Transformed into a National Application: No

    Registration Date: 2005-09-20

    Register: Principal

    Law Office Assigned: LAW OFFICE 113

    If you are the applicant or applicant's attorney and have questions about this file, please contact the Trademark Assistance Center at TrademarkAssistanceCenter@uspto.gov__Current Location: 650 -Publication And Issue Section__Date In Location: 2005-09-20_

    LAST APPLICANT(S)/OWNER(S) OF RECORD

    1. The, Sin Kwang

    Address:
    The, Sin Kwang
    (address deleted by me ... if you want sin the's address it is public info but you will need to get it yourself)
    Legal Entity Type: Individual
    Country of Citizenship: United States
    Phone Number: 818 341 6171
    Fax Number: 818 341 6171


    GOODS AND/OR SERVICES

    International Class: 041
    martial arts instruction
    First Use Date: 1978-10-15
    First Use in Commerce Date: 1985-06-15

    Basis: 1(a)


    ADDITIONAL INFORMATION

    Disclaimer: SHAOLIN DO

    Name Portrait Consent: The name GRANDMASTER SIN KWANG THE identifies a living individual whose consent is of record.

    Translation: SHAOLIN DO is the name of a style of martial arts.

    Design Search Code(s):
    07.01.06 - Other houses
    26.11.01 - Rectangles as carriers or rectangles as single or multiple line borders
    26.11.21 - Rectangles that are completely or partially shaded


    MADRID PROTOCOL INFORMATION

    (NOT AVAILABLE)


    PROSECUTION HISTORY

    2005-09-20 - Registered - Principal Register

    2005-06-28 - Published for opposition

    2005-06-08 - Notice of publication

    2005-03-23 - Law Office Publication Review Completed

    2005-03-22 - Assigned To LIE

    2005-03-17 - Approved for Pub - Principal Register (Initial exam)

    2005-03-17 - Amendment From Applicant Entered

    2005-03-14 - Communication received from applicant

    2005-03-14 - FAX RECEIVED

    2004-09-17 - Examiner's Amendment And/Or Priority Action E-Mailed

    2004-09-17 - Examiners Amendment And/Or Priority Action - Completed

    2004-09-15 - Case file assigned to examining attorney

    2004-03-15 - New Application Entered In Tram


    CORRESPONDENCE INFORMATION

    Correspondent
    Craig O. Correll (Attorney of record)

    Craig O. Correll
    CRAIG O CORRELL ATTORNEY AT LAW
    4245 SUNNYHILL DR
    CARLSBAD CA 92008-3647

    Phone Number: 760 434 6800
    Fax Number: 760 434 0808



    ===================================

    http://www.loc.gov/cgi-bin/formproce...right/locis.pl

    (Combined Search)
    Search For: TITL/SHAOLIN DO
    Item 1 of 1

    1. Registration Number: PAu-1-493-404
    Title: Shaolin do.
    Description: videocassette.
    Note: Cataloged from appl.
    Claimant: Sin Kwang The
    Created: 1980
    Registered: 9Aug90
    Author on Application: Sin Kwang The.
    Previous Related Version: Martial arts movements preexisting.
    Claim Limit: NEW MATTER: selection & ordering of exercises.
    Miscellaneous: C.O. corres.
    Special Codes: 3/D
  10. It is Fake is offline
    It is Fake's Avatar

    Administrator

    Join Date
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    33,785

    Posted On:
    10/04/2009 8:11am

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Staff View Post
    Having taken a little time, asking a few questions here and there I've come to a few conclusions.......and many question.

    Conclusions:

    Things at CSC are broke and need fixing
    Many, many people are disatisfied with how things are run
    David Soard did an immoral and unethical thing
    There have been many mistakes made on both sides

    Questions:

    I've just read that letter and the sex scandal seems to be a very minor part of the reasons for the disassociation. Why wait until now to do it? Was the scandal used as a weapon?

    Question for the Soards: Why the silence treatment about all of this? You do know this is just making you look guilty as hell.

    Why was the one 4th degree black belt in Boulder kicked out of the art? Especially since he was not directly involved. For that matter how did he get so involved in the first place and why?

    **********

    These are just a few questions. In any case I try to be as fair as I can to both sides. Master David hasn't said a whole lot but he has made it known that this is all because on control of the schools. To be honest that letter sort of supports David's argument.

    I'll just close by saying that a lot of people knew the Soards were not exactly the most honorable people in the world especially in their marriage vows. Also, in my opinion David is not exactly the smartest man who ever lived. Wouldn't it have been so easy to get the man in a situation such as the one he finds himself in now?
    All I'll say is the timing is the Soards' fault.
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