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  1. Beorn is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/06/2009 11:10am


     Style: TKD, judo, MT noob

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    TKD is not your pokemon

    So a recent thread by the illustrious poster jason123 got me thinking about both my experiences with TKD and what I saw as being wrong both with the style and with the practitioners of the style. Then for some reason I was inspired to remember the only thing I have ever agreed with hedge on, and it was his metaphor for how people treat bjj, learning new moves with little to no understanding of the principles and fundamentals behind them, and expecting to be able to pull them out of no where like a pokemon selecting from a moves list. I believe that this becomes even more applicable to TKD, especially with TKD as it is not supposed to be taught.

    The first and most egregious versions of the "pokemon" attitude is the way promotions are handled. Its not that there is a specific techniques list per say, its more in the way the the emphasis shifts totally in between promotions to those techniques and nothing else. Its like "Oh, you already know side kick, why would we keep practicing it?" They treat knowledge of the basics like its some static thing that once you have you will never lose. Its not like that, a roundhouse kick is not thundershock. A side kick is not tackle. If you don't practice them often YOU WILL LOSE THEM!

    Furthermore, these techniques are taught in a vacuum, devoid of any context as to when to use them or how they are set up. Again, this isn't pokemon, you don't get to trade attacks one for one. Things need to be set up. Timing, distancing, and feinting all come into play. The general lack of any knowledge in this area is probably the thing that gets more TKD'ers hurt than anything else. I even had one of my former students come up and tell me he was thinking of competing in MMA with just his TKD striking and some BJJ from a tape. He was convinced that because "those MMA guys just punch" he would be able to quickly dispatch them with his longer legs. Fortunately I dissuaded him, but it is a prevailing thought amongst TKD practitioners.

    In conclusion; Thank you jason123, without your rabid nut hugging, I would have never been able to verbalize exactly what my problem is with an art that I legitimately believe has a lot to offer the striking world if taught correctly.

    P.S. I know that many people will say this applies to alot of mcdojo-esque arts and that may be true, the difference is that I have experience with TKD and care about TKD. If the discussion gets big enough I am sure the mods will move it accordingly
  2. 1point2 is online now
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    Posted On:
    10/06/2009 1:54pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: 剛 and 柔

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The necessity of fundamentals becomes obvious when the sparring rules involve and reward the use of fundamentals. If the sparring rules are tweaked incorrectly, it starts rewarding bullshit like 540 reverse butterfly kicks with a cherry on top.

    Nice post.
    What a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable. -Xenophon's Socrates
  3. Beorn is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/06/2009 3:26pm


     Style: TKD, judo, MT noob

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2 View Post
    The necessity of fundamentals becomes obvious when the sparring rules involve and reward the use of fundamentals. If the sparring rules are tweaked incorrectly, it starts rewarding bullshit like 540 reverse butterfly kicks with a cherry on top.

    Nice post.
    That is another point I forgot to mention. The rules no longer really reward causing damage. You may have to cause them to stop moving with a body kick, but just tap them on the head and its three points. And forget about punching, I don't even know why its in the rule books they never score it.

    But even then, the best point sparring I have seen comes from people that have three or four techniques they drill religiously. They know the timing, the distancing, and the set ups. I just don't see that ever being mentioned in most TKD schools, and it is so important
  4. ZenOfAnger is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/06/2009 3:46pm


     Style: Judo+soon 2b bjj,boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    http://www.fullyramblomatic.com/essays/pokemon.htm

    I think the above speaks volumes about why so many treat TKD like pokemon.
    Okay, so it's not really related to the OP, but it's one of my favorite articles.
    Let your anger be like a monkey trapped inside a pinata; waiting inside, hoping that the children don't break through with the stick.

    -Master Tang (Kung Pow! Enter the Fist)

    A word to the wise ain't necessary. It's the stupid ones who need the advice.
    Bill Cosby

    The believer is happy, the doubter wise.
    Greek proverb

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicko1 View Post
    Martial Talk is not neutral, it's just neutered.
  5. Earl Weiss is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/07/2009 6:54am


     Style: TKD & JJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    That is another point I forgot to mention. The rules no longer really reward causing damage. You may have to cause them to stop moving with a body kick, but just tap them on the head and its three points. And forget about punching, I don't even know why its in the rule books they never score it.

    But even then, the best point sparring I have seen comes from people that have three or four techniques they drill religiously. They know the timing, the distancing, and the set ups. I just don't see that ever being mentioned in most TKD schools, and it is so important
    Is the issue with TKD, or the schools that claim to teach it.

    Is the issue being that TKD is ineffective because it fails to teach fundamental sparring concepts, or is something else missing as well?
  6. MMAMickey is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/07/2009 7:03am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Boxing.MMA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    OP actually saved that mma kid's life
  7. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/07/2009 3:43pm

    supporting memberstaff
     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Earl Weiss View Post
    Is the issue with TKD, or the schools that claim to teach it.

    Is the issue being that TKD is ineffective because it fails to teach fundamental sparring concepts, or is something else missing as well?
    The answer to your question is "All of the above".
  8. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/07/2009 4:10pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Earl Weiss View Post
    Is the issue with TKD, or the schools that claim to teach it.
    We are 40 years past it being "the teacher not the art argument." This problem permeates a large majority of TKD or KMA in general. Otherwise, people wouldn't be shocked, including TKDers, when Der or someone else posts a good KMA video.
  9. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/07/2009 4:14pm

    supporting memberstaff
     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    Otherwise, people wouldn't be shocked, including TKDers, when Der or someone else posts a good KMA video.
    Thanks for the reminder.
  10. Beorn is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/07/2009 11:32pm


     Style: TKD, judo, MT noob

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Earl Weiss View Post
    Is the issue with TKD, or the schools that claim to teach it.

    Is the issue being that TKD is ineffective because it fails to teach fundamental sparring concepts, or is something else missing as well?
    As IIF and Der are trying to say in their usual acerbic way, it is a combination of things, culminating in a general acceptance within the KMA world of mediocre and unrealistic sparring and "self defense scenarios". Alot of it has to do with the individual teacher, it is not unreasonable for a person claiming to be able to teach self defense to actually be able to make good on his/her claims. But at the same time, there is a general wink and nod acceptance of shoddiness that is unheard of in other styles (read; judo, bjj, muay thai, ect.) That is a style wide problem.

    TKD has all the potential to be a legitimate full contact striking art. Furthermore, there are several things within TKD that I feel are neglected in other, more respected arts. It is solely up to the individual practitioner to realize what is good and what is bullshit and make it work for them.

    For refference, though I no longer actively train TKD, I would still consider my kicking style predominantly TKD, with the only real modification being to my round house to accommodate the more squared off stance in Muay Thai and MMA. It can be effective, one just has to throw out the bullshit
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