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  1. Sun_Helmet is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/20/2009 10:48pm


     Style: Sayoc Kali

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Every influence is evident to whatever FMA system you are familiar with. For example, a PTK guy will see PTK in the Sayoc knife and stop at that, a Doce Pares guy will see it from their POV (especially the Cacoy Canete line) and so will Modern Arnis. They are all correct because Sayoc was influenced by all of them because they were all around the Sayoc household, as well as Professor Vee, GM Matt Marinas, Manong Inosanto, etc.

    What the Sayocs disagree with is when an "influence" cites and promotes themselves as the sole or main influence of Sayoc. Completely discounting everyone else who are incredible teachers and fighters in their own right who the Sayocs respected and trained with. That includes their cross training in Japanese arts and Korean arts.

    That was then and today, Sayoc has evolved due to the real world experience and crosstraining with LEOs and military.

    Obtaining an anatomy book is good for starters, you will be surprised how many knife experts can't tell a vein from an artery and what the vital organs are. However, that is setting a limitation that no one else shares if they actively study Sayoc in-depth. Consider that several Sayoc instructors are already in the medical field (be it in the military or in private practice) - and have other martial training, so they find something that answers gaps in their combatives evolution.

    If you scour around the web, you will see that size is used as another self-imposed limitation by the posters. Here above you note that now the Sayoc's knife work involves more weight or size to execute, when you look at years and years of trolls bashing Sayoc due to the opposite. I've been in Sayoc for 25 years and weigh under 180 lbs myself, it has never been a problem because Sayoc is about precision while taking control of the aggressive space. It appears powerful because the other person is getting caught up by the angles, beats and economy of motion. It looks strong because the Sayoc guy is not taking three beats to something he can accomplish in a half beat. So you there's no wasted movement.


    Take a look at Tuhon Felix Cortes on youtube (Filipino Combatives) you will see how Sayoc integrates footwork and flow in a dynamic manner even in the most basic samples for public consumption. You can see it in the stickwork here because stick requires more impact to generate damage than a knife.
  2. bluedevilboy76 is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/20/2009 11:54pm


     Style: kali

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by selfcritical View Post
    "Influenced" is not a spurious assertion. It would be very odd for any of the many trainers they spent so long with NOT to influence them in the sayocs case. My understanding is that the atienza's were much younger when GT gaje was around, so I would expect the influence to be lesser, as they had less time in exposure, and more exposure to other elements later.

    I personally know some of the people who went out to the sayocs driveway to train them when they were in their early teens.

    Saying that sayoc is "based on" pekiti would I think be more spurious. There is clearly a plurality of training influences there.
    How long and how often did these personal acquaintances of yours train with the Sayocs? The Atienzas? How long and how often did they train with the Sayocs and Atienzas when compared to the other members of the FMA community?

    Finally, and most importantly, the OP's question was about what people think about Sayoc Kali, the importance of physical power and anatomy.

    Back to that:

    If the concern is with physical size and its effect on the power of the blade, the commenter is kind of missing the point of edged weapons.
  3. selfcritical is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/21/2009 12:37am


     Style: Pekiti, ARMA, other stuff

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by bluedevilboy76 View Post
    How long and how often did these personal acquaintances of yours train with the Sayocs? The Atienzas? How long and how often did they train with the Sayocs and Atienzas when compared to the other members of the FMA community?

    Finally, and most importantly, the OP's question was about what people think about Sayoc Kali, the importance of physical power and anatomy.

    Back to that:

    If the concern is with physical size and its effect on the power of the blade, the commenter is kind of missing the point of edged weapons.
    Erwin didn't train the Atienza's to my knowledge, and I apologize if I gave any impression otherwise. Otherwise, i mainly agree with what was posted above. The sayocs have many influences, and pekiti is one of them. The next time I get a chance to talk to Erwin i'll ask him. I don't recall him having anything negative to say about Tuhon Chris' skill.

    I don't usually bother to dignify the size questions with a response. When I trained Sayoc, my group leader was maybe 130lbs soaking wet, if that. If I still had access to said group I'd still be supplementing my training to this day.

    My experience with sayoc was largely positive, and I found the material engaged movements I was familiar with using a different methodology (focusing more on testing lines and drawing reaction rather the more "movement" focused methodology that my pekiti instructor used). Although tapping was not the focus of early training, I feel that I improved my technical details of edged weapon defense, as Aaron managed to pound some movments into me that my other instructor had been noting as deficiencies in my knife tapping. The classes were physical and had live time at the end of every session- so we were presented with progressive resistance early and often.

    My only criticism of the teaching format (and this could be specific to aaron, I haven't made it to wichita falls to see if the other instructors are similar) was that some of the mechanics utilized in the templates and transition drills (footwork mainly), wasn't drilled much independently, instead meant to be self-correcting within the drill, and I feel that teaching gross motor movment before the gross motor skill is probably more efficient long-run. This is just a pedagogy quibble though, and not critcism of the material per se.
    Last edited by selfcritical; 10/21/2009 12:51am at .
  4. Sun_Helmet is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/22/2009 7:02am


     Style: Sayoc Kali

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Footwork is taught in Sayoc when longer or impact weapons are the focus ( as that taught in Sayoc Silak for example). Especially in the beginning. Reason being is that a knife based system which the Sayoc Kali curriculum specializes in is rooted in real blade scenarios where knife dueling is not the foundation. If the system starts you off in footwork then it will focus in a longer range when you have that time to move around. When the knife system starts you off with body mechanics then you are studying a system that is teaching skills for confined spaces, unsure footing, and situations when the weapon is not brandished during the attack. It is no longer a sport based or dueling based mindset posing as real world combatives training.
    Now with that said, if anyone ever watched a high level Sayoc instructor using long range footwork, they would know they have those skills implanted especially when applied to multiple man scenarios. Again, a whole set of skills and study involved. The Sayocs have a distinct methodology concerned about deconstructing these types of scenarios. None of which was taught to them when they were in their teens but earned through thousands of hours drilling, training and studying real world combatives involving law enforcement, security personnel and military.
  5. selfcritical is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/22/2009 8:53am


     Style: Pekiti, ARMA, other stuff

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Sun_Helmet View Post
    Footwork is taught in Sayoc when longer or impact weapons are the focus ( as that taught in Sayoc Silak for example). Especially in the beginning. Reason being is that a knife based system which the Sayoc Kali curriculum specializes in is rooted in real blade scenarios where knife dueling is not the foundation. If the system starts you off in footwork then it will focus in a longer range when you have that time to move around. When the knife system starts you off with body mechanics then you are studying a system that is teaching skills for confined spaces, unsure footing, and situations when the weapon is not brandished during the attack. It is no longer a sport based or dueling based mindset posing as real world combatives training.
    .
    By "footwork" I'm refering to the close-quarter pivoting motions, rather than the triangular movments. The former was definitely present when I was practicing sayoc, and has shown up in basically every sensible knife system i've seen. My pekiti instructor taught it in isolation during warm-ups before function drill, my sayoc group leader taught it in the context of the basic drills(vital templates and transition drills) because he believed it was self-correcting, and my inosanto instructor barely touched on it at all.
  6. Sun_Helmet is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/23/2009 12:19pm


     Style: Sayoc Kali

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by selfcritical View Post
    By "footwork" I'm refering to the close-quarter pivoting motions, rather than the triangular movments. The former was definitely present when I was practicing sayoc, and has shown up in basically every sensible knife system i've seen.

    In Sayoc we refer to any non full step movements as body shifting, since pivoting occurs at any range. One can pivot the shoulders when sitting in a vehicle, or shift the hips laterally prior to pivoting. So there's levels and layers to all this pivoting.

    Body Shift happens first then footwork. If circumstances allow it, it can happen at the same time.

    Knife attacks where the victim successfully gets clear of the attacker's weapon will most likely show the victim shifting their body prior to taking any step.

    On the feeder side, the knife should be felt before it is even seen, so any gross footwork motions may appear to be too many beats for some courts to handle. They believe if you can move a step forward, you can move a step to exit. Doesn't mean it makes sense in reality or when during an attack but the knife user may have a better chance in the eyes of the authorities if the knife is trained from the standpoint of no escape space or dueling gap involved.

    One of the reasons Sayoc trains transition drills is because the Receiver realizes pretty quickly they only have halfbeats to regain advantage. They start off squared off and within easy reach of the reactionary gap. This means they have already exhausted all means of creating space to escape and de-escalation.

    If the knife training starts the students off in a dueling range, then you are already subconsciously installing a very wide premise; that the student can fight before thinking of the alternatives and consequences.

    It is also another reason why we teach the anatomy right away. Some students are taught to stab at areas as if the weapon was a magic wand instead of really showing them that the knife is a weapon that will do great harm to the other person's flesh and organs. If an instructor devalues in-depth anatomical studies by merely stating to lift from a text book, does that also indicate that perhaps they don't care to know what the knife will do? Out of sight, out of mind?

    So when the instructor is saying they teach footwork, what are they really teaching you? What scenario is being used as the default?

    If it is a dueling scenario then that's probably a stick based or long blade art trying to pass off as a close quarter knife system.
    Last edited by Sun_Helmet; 10/23/2009 12:23pm at .
  7. selfcritical is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/23/2009 2:16pm


     Style: Pekiti, ARMA, other stuff

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thanks for the clarification. We were just at cross purposes on terminology. On this matter I don't see that i've got much substantial disagreement. I personally learn physical things best when moving from gross motor movement to complex motor movment, so the teaching style of my main instructor goes well with that- while I feel others probably would do, i'm well aware that as someone with a fair amount of brain damage and some learning disabilities, that I need not universalize from my preferences.
  8. Epa is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/30/2009 2:30pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If an instructor devalues in-depth anatomical studies by merely stating to lift from a text book, does that also indicate that perhaps they don't care to know what the knife will do? Out of sight, out of mind?
    Thanks for the in-depth posts. I would be curious to hear a little more about what you consider to be necessary in-depth anatomical studies for knife work. With my limited experience in Sayoc (a few seminars), I found the emphasis on anatomical targeting useful because it is not emphasized as much in other FMA systems. Aside from understanding targeting how is an in-depth understanding of anatomy helpful to your knife work?

    To me a degree of anatomical knowledge is clearly useful, but I am not sure about how in-depth it is necessary to go. At some point, it seems you would hit diminishing returns since there have been plenty of skilled knife players that had considerable skill but not medical degrees. How in-depth do you think a student should go to develop practical knife skill?
  9. Sun_Helmet is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/07/2009 2:43pm


     Style: Sayoc Kali

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    We tend to reserve discussions of this type of matters in the Sayoc members only forum. To briefly cover some points without going in-depth here are study of knife wounds, infections, adrenaline, stress, shock, reflexive responses, medical management etc...

    For example, anyone who teaches knife work for practical knife skill should also know how to manage wounds, superficial or lethal. Or else training without proper first response knowledge eliminates actually handling live blade. If the knife instructors do not have a protocol for medical management in class or at seminars, that they have actually drilled - then they are still in "dojo" mode.

    Another example is, what happens if your hands are actually slashed? Do we think of the hand as just part of the limb or do we understand what extensors and flexors are? If you are in a tight situation - knowing what damage the knife can do beyond slash and stab shaves off valuable seconds.

    I disagree on acquiring knowledge of anatomy as "diminishing skill", because our definition of skilled knife experts may be different from others. A skilled knife expert never stops learning so it can never be diminishing. Applying and acquiring knowledge with determined practice is at the core of Sayoc methodology. Without that guidance, yes, one could end up studying without complementing practical application.

    As per "practical knife skill", that is a definition that also varies. Some people would think a practical knife skill is being able to start a fire in the middle of snowy forest, others may consider the ability to identify the concealment postures of inmates or predators. Since those two skills may actually be more practical depending on the scenario.
    Last edited by Sun_Helmet; 11/07/2009 2:48pm at .
  10. Jim_Jude is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/08/2009 12:13am

    Join us... or die
     Style: StrikeyGrappling & WW2-fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So, Sayoc Kali's no good? That's what you're saying?
    "Judo is a study of techniques with which you may kill if you wish to kill, injure if you wish to injure, subdue if you wish to subdue, and, when attacked, defend yourself" - Jigoro Kano (1889)
    ***Was this quote "taken out of context"?***

    "The judoist has no time to allow himself a margin for error, especially in a situation upon which his or another person's very life depends...."
    ~ The Secret of Judo (Jiichi Watanabe & Lindy Avakian), p.19

    "Hope is not a method... nor is enthusiasm."
    ~ Brigadier General Gordon Toney
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