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  1. patfromlogan is offline
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    Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    10/03/2009 4:08pm

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     Style: Kyokushinkai / Kajukenbo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by ronin497 View Post
    When I was on legal hold towards the end of my naval career, I did prisoner escorts to/from the brig. One thing we were taught by a couple senior MA's and brig staff was to look for some kind of visible pulsing of the neck veins prior to an attack.

    I never understood how a person could possibly notice something like that.
    When a guy was about to punch me a vein on his forehead started pulsing. It was scary.
    "Preparing mentally, the most important thing is, if you aren't doing it for the love of it, then don't do it." - Benny Urquidez
  2. elipson is offline
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    Ad Hominem rocks.

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    Posted On:
    10/03/2009 8:50pm

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     Style: BJJ, mma

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Some of these things are obvious, like a guy taking up a boxers stance. Watching someone switch his stance to a 45 degree is go time for me.

    When im mad i dont so much clench my fist, as flex it open and closed (part of this is a conscious effort NOT to clench my fist). Either way its a dead give away when im cranky.

    I'm not sure what they mean by a "target stare" I've follwoed guys walking through the bar who are obviously looking for someone in particular, maybe that is what they mean.

    I find anytime a guy turns around at the exit to the bar, there is a high chance he is turning to smack you and then run off. Not very sporting IMO...
  3. tgace is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/03/2009 9:49pm


     Style: Arnis/Kenpo hybrid

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by elipson View Post
    Some of these things are obvious, like a guy taking up a boxers stance. Watching someone switch his stance to a 45 degree is go time for me.

    When im mad i dont so much clench my fist, as flex it open and closed (part of this is a conscious effort NOT to clench my fist). Either way its a dead give away when im cranky.

    I'm not sure what they mean by a "target stare" I've follwoed guys walking through the bar who are obviously looking for someone in particular, maybe that is what they mean.

    I find anytime a guy turns around at the exit to the bar, there is a high chance he is turning to smack you and then run off. Not very sporting IMO...

    "Target Stare" means that a person is focusing on what they want to hit. If it seems like a guy is staring at your chin...or in a cop's case your pistol. He is choosing a "target".
  4. BadUglyMagic is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/03/2009 10:05pm


     Style: slackerjitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    For those of you who haven't, google "Pre-Assaultive indicators".

    Enjoy.

    Also, some persons may not exhibit indicator cues. Has this happened to anyone?
    Last edited by BadUglyMagic; 10/03/2009 10:17pm at .
  5. Petter is offline

    12th level logic wielder

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    Posted On:
    10/04/2009 10:25pm


     Style: BJJ, judo, rapier

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kanegs View Post
    As the parent of a child with autism, some of these indicators jump out at me as being common traits of people on the autistic spectrum
    I find this an interesting note. Could you expand on it? Are there other common “indicators” that are common to autistic people, but do not indicate aggression, or is it the case that the signals are in fact similar?

    The recent surge of kids on the Autism Spectrum means that soon we will have more adults on the Autism Spectrum.
    There’s most likely no such “surge” or increase, just a change in diagnostic criteria, better screening, and a whole heap of diagnostic substitution. A British study has found that the autism rate is identical in children and adults.
    [ petterhaggholm.net | blog | essays ]
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    “The plural of anecdote is anecdotes, not data.”
  6. BadUglyMagic is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/05/2009 1:10pm


     Style: slackerjitsu

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    Quote Originally Posted by Petter View Post
    I find this an interesting note. Could you expand on it? Are there other common “indicators” that are common to autistic people, but do not indicate aggression, or is it the case that the signals are in fact similar?
    Petter,

    The below are taken from the Minnesota Rules for Autism Sprectrum Disorders and list behaviors common to the "Autism Spectrum". This may answer your question.

    Also, while reading, imagine you are conducting a street interview for burglary/assault/whatever. Persons with autistic disorders may not respond to stress well at all. That said an officer who feels the interviewee is not cooperative may induce stress (implied treats, unpleasant outcomes, bad things happening to the interiewee) to gain cooperation. Without knowing the person and with your own situational stress, how would you as an officer intent on making an arrest, perceive these behaviors. As a mental excercise, think of the different personality types within LE an how those personalities may respond to a noncompliant subject exhibiting these behaviors. It might turn out to be a bad day for everyone involved. Consider it as an important issue even if only when you have to deal with it.

    Items relevant to the twin topics have been marked bold face.




    (1) Qualitative impairment in social interaction, as documented by two or more behavioral indicators, for example:
    • limited joint attention and limited use of facial expressions directed toward others;
    • does not show or bring things to others to indicate an interest in the activity;
    • demonstrates difficulties in relating to people, objects, and events;
    • a gross impairment in ability to make and keep friends;
    • significant vulnerability and safety issues due to social naivete;
    • may appear to prefer isolated or solitary activities;
    • misinterprets others' behaviors and social cues.
    (2) Qualitative impairment in communication, as documented by one or more behavioral indicators, for example:
    • not using finger to point or request;
    • using others' hand or body as a tool;
    • showing lack of spontaneous imitations or lack of varied imaginative play;
    • absence or delay of spoken language;
    • limited understanding and use of nonverbal communication skills such as gestures, facial expressions, or voice tone;
    • odd production of speech including intonation, volume, rhythm, or rate;
    • repetitive or idiosyncratic language or inability to initiate or maintain a conversation when speech is present.
    (3) Restricted, repetitive, or stereotyped patterns of behavior, interest, and activities, as documented by one or more behavioral indicators, for example:
    • insistence on following routines or rituals;
    • demonstrating distress or resistance to changes in activity;
    • repetitive hand or finger mannerism;
    • lack of true imaginative play versus reenactment;
    • overreaction or under-reaction to sensory stimuli;
    • rigid or rule-bound thinking;
    • an intense, focused preoccupation with a limited range of play, interests, or conversation topics.
    edited for typos
    Last edited by BadUglyMagic; 10/05/2009 1:15pm at .
  7. tgace is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/05/2009 3:29pm


     Style: Arnis/Kenpo hybrid

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    As an officer I have taken numerous classes on dealing with "special needs populations". As someone interested in Pre-Assaultive Indicators I have also been presented with the "Autism Question" as well.

    All I can say about the issue is that sometimes you can tell when a person is handicapped or has a medical condition and sometimes you cant. I would not want to impress upon officers that they should "assume" that someone exhibiting the indications of aggression is Autistic or "not a threat" by default. The best that can be done is make officers aware of the Autistic symptoms so that they can make the best decision possible at the time.
  8. tideliar is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/05/2009 4:34pm


     Style: Muay Thai

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BadUglyMagic View Post
    The below are taken from the Minnesota Rules for Autism Sprectrum Disorders and list behaviors common to the "Autism Spectrum"...
    This really is a big deal, especially for children with ASD who are in non-special needs schools. Teachers often don't have the training they need to deal with stress-indicators in this population. There was a recent example down here (in MS) about a 14yr old on the Spectrum who ended up in custody, in a cell for several hours after everyone misread his panic signals when he didn't get his bathroom break on time. Now the City is blaming the parents and trying to put the kid into foster care!

    it's a different world down here some times.

    Too OT? Sorry...
  9. BadUglyMagic is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/06/2009 2:28pm


     Style: slackerjitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Please note that the below is follow up from post #8 and while a slight derail is not meant as questioning the value of pre-assaultive indicators or the OP.

    Quote Originally Posted by tgace View Post
    As an officer I have taken numerous classes on dealing with "special needs populations". As someone interested in Pre-Assaultive Indicators I have also been presented with the "Autism Question" as well.
    It is commendable that you would take classes on dealing with the "special needs populations". A cowboy probably wouldn't. What, if any experiences have you had or observed under stress or duress condition involving persons with "special needs".


    Quote Originally Posted by tgace View Post
    All I can say about the issue is that sometimes you can tell when a person is handicapped or has a medical condition and sometimes you cant.
    As you are aware, autistic disorders cover a spectrum, regarding them as handicapped might give an officer an adversarial mindset. Is that an appropriate interview approach?

    Quote Originally Posted by tgace View Post
    I would not want to impress upon officers that they should "assume" that someone exhibiting the indications of aggression is Autistic or "not a threat" by default..
    What would you impress upon officers? Correct me if this assumption is incorrect, as a responder or investigator at a crime scene or stop encountering/interviewing a person(s) displaying the behaviors you have authority to detain them for questioning. Even if you are informed about their "condition", if they refuse you have the authority to physically detain/subdue them and charge the with disorderly conduct, resisting arrest, obstruction, or whatever. If in fact during the attempts to detain them you are unsuccessful and perceive a danger to yourself and you may use deadly force in self defense.

    Is it possible the officer in theat situation might face sanctions if not prosection for federal civil rights violations?

    Quote Originally Posted by tgace View Post
    The best that can be done is make officers aware of the Autistic symptoms so that they can make the best decision possible at the time.
    In your experience, since the behaviors are so similar, what has worked for you to raise awareness of a probable autistic subject during the interview/arrest process?
    Last edited by BadUglyMagic; 10/06/2009 2:32pm at .
  10. tgace is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/06/2009 4:11pm


     Style: Arnis/Kenpo hybrid

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "Handicapped".."special needs"..."medical disability"..... I think that we have become too enamored with forming "acceptable" terms IMO. Does anybody really believe that what a person thinks "inside" is changed just because they use a more PC term? I'd rather address a persons actions. People can talk all the PC lingo and still be wrong minded. Conversely you can use non-PC terms and still be fair and just. I don't buy into the "this term is going to cause officers to act unfairly" program.

    The bottom line in law enforcement is what the cop "reasonably believed" at the time of the encounter. Even if the officer was aware of a subjects Autism I would not recommend that he ignore indications of violence. He may have to temper his response based on that information but Autism doesn't mean that a person is not capable of being a threat. We can exchange "what if's" until the cows come home, but if an officer was responding reasonably to what was presented at the time then I have no issue.

    I read a book (cant recall the title) describing a police encounter with an Autistic subject. During a pat frisk the subject turned and punched the officer. The subject was arrested and charged. When asked why he punched the officer the subject communicated that 'No, I didn't mean to hurt the policeman. I just wanted him to stop touching me.'"

    Now. Having Autism doesn't exempt you from a pat frisk, and I'm not going to just accept getting punched without reacting, knowledge of disability or not. However. If I find out the person is Autistic after the fact I can take that into consideration when deciding to charge or not.

    If I know ahead of time I can hopefully remember to use simple and direct commands to prevent confusion in the subject. Avoid physical contact unless necessary and be aware that the persons actions and vocalizations are not necessarily a threat. NOT that they are NO THREAT but that these signs could be symptoms of their disability.

    A crime is a crime. If Autism is going to be used as a "defense" that needs to be proven in court, not on the street. The issue here is fundamentally one of fair treatment and justifiable use of force. I will go with what is presented to me, tempered with any additional information I may gather at the scene. If someone is acting like they are going "to roll", I'm not going to be asking them a slew of medical history questions...I'm just not.

    Sometimes you have no idea what a persons "issues" are. Sometimes you do. Sometimes you can sort of "figure it out". Simply being aware that Autism can cause some of these indicators helps some officers "figure it out". That's the best you can expect IMO.

    Here is a good LE and Autism website:

    http://policeandautism.cjb.net/avoiding.html
    Last edited by tgace; 10/06/2009 4:40pm at .
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