Pugilism still exist?

**blacklabcaleb** · Posted On: 9/30/2009 11:48pm

Does anyone still practice the original form of pugilism, before it turned into prize fighting. I understand they used kicks, sweeps, stomps, eye gouging and some throws. There was just no fighting on the ground.

It must have been an effective martial art if you could go unarmed in those violent times. I'd like to learn more about authentic pugilism.

**SBG-ape** · Posted On: 10/01/2009 1:15am

uummmm...ahem: [British accent] Search function noob. [/British accent]

It sounds like you've got some stuff right & a bunch of stuff wrong. There are threads about pre-queensbury prizefighting all over this forum. Look around.

**willaume** · Posted On: 10/01/2009 3:15am

As SGB-ape mentioned old chap,
There is some good thread about the rule, If I remember well DdLR posted it.

In England Linacre school in oxford do practice pugilism, chancoring and all.
http://www.sirwilliamhope.org/Library/Mendoza/

Very early the rules excluded gauging, hooking and kicking. Stomping and ground fighting was de-facto out as the end of the round was one participant was knocked down.
They were no more violent that today, the application of force was just perceived differently by the society of the time.

As far as being the deadly off old, well fighting is a bit like getting someone of the gender you are attracted to in your bed, every one knows where to strike, the real trick is to getting yourself in position to do so.

Phil

**kwan_dao** · Posted On: 10/01/2009 6:48am

Originally Posted by willaume

As far as being the deadly off old, well fighting is a bit like getting someone of the gender you are attracted to in your bed, every one knows where to strike, the real trick is to getting yourself in position to do so.

Phil

Priceless!

As to the OP: Search funktion was already mentioned, so I will restrain myself and only add the following:

I doubt anyone with legitimate knowledge is practicing eye-gouges. Using stuff like that in a realistic self-defense situation, will most likely get you into jail. Ever heard of "reasonable force"?

A friend of mine got into trouble because he double-fractured someones jaw with a plain old right-hook in self-defense. Guess what the judge would have said if he had permanently blinded his opponent?

For me personally, eye-gouges are thus kinda like an instant "instructor is a bullshidoka or an unrealistic larper" warning.

If you still want to do it... poking someone into the eyes is not exactly an art normal people have to practice for.

If you are looking for a legit european style with boxing, kicking, sweeps, throws, locks and whatnot, I would say "savate (boxe francaise) defense" is a possible way to go. I hear that good schools are hard to find though, even in france.

**lklawson** · Posted On: 10/01/2009 8:47am

What everyone else already said. There are a whole bunch of old school boxing manuals here: http://stores.lulu.com/lawson

Moving along - Kicking:
Doran's boxing manual has an interesting take on kicking along with a way to "accidentally" knee your opponent in the face: http://www.lulu.com/content/paperbac...efense/7578495

Allanson-Winn has a small section at the back of his boxing manual which includes self defense and la Savate: http://www.lulu.com/content/paperbac...boxing/6494108

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

**Mr. Machette** · Posted On: 10/01/2009 11:46am

I almost saw some old style Pugilism break out at a bar last night! lol

How far back are we talking though? Turn of the century bare knuckles boxing matches that went on for 100+ rounds? Roman style with the "cestus" leather and lead hand wraps? Or the even earlier Greek style with bare knuckles and asses?

Honestly, sport boxing is about as close as I think you'll get in modern America, outside of a "fight club" or some underground "Human Cock Fight". I mean, do you really want to get hit full force in the face by a guy wearing cestus? Even with modern gloves you'll get your clock adequately cleaned by a normal boxer if he lands a good strike.

As for self defense? I think Muay Tai would be the closest available style if you want to concentrate on relatively unpadded striking and kicking. Also includes knees and elbows which give you more striking power at ranges too close to effectively punch or kick.

Good luck, and train safe!

**A.M.** · Posted On: 10/01/2009 2:06pm

Their is a American Rough & Tumble fighting that included eye gouging but those fights were usually unarmed duals to death were anything went except for weapons.

**DdlR** · Posted On: 10/04/2009 1:38am

Dr. Les Moore, an instructor at the recent WMAW conference in Wisconsin, teaches what he says is a method of bare-knuckle boxing passed down since the 19th century through family connections in the Appalachians. It's an unusual claim, but I've taken classes with him and TBH it seems pretty legit to me.

Otherwise, yes, there are several clubs around the world that have reconstructed historical forms of pugilism.

**marcusdbrutus** · Posted On: 10/04/2009 1:42am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJHTV...eature=related

Just thought I'd toss this in here.

**kwan_dao** · Posted On: 10/04/2009 2:42am

Originally Posted by DdlR

It's an unusual claim, but I've taken classes with him and TBH it seems pretty legit to me.

There is a general problem with such claims, as they are obviously easy to come up with and hard to prove or disprove.

There is also often a distinct lack of "quality control" in family systems nowadays (because even in the remotest backwater ditch you just do not fight for your life on a regular basis anymore, and even traditional contests of folk-style wrestling or boxing are dieing out rapidly). Combined with the very small group of teachers such systems typically have, they might degrade to utter nonsense pretty fast, without anyone inside the system noticing.

Yet I would not deem it unusual or even unlikely for something useful to survive. Lets just say, I can vouch for this possibility from personal experience. ;-)