So should I just stop expecting a BJJ blackbelt in a dominant position against a novice grappler to be able to submit him at will? I'm a bit confused because I was under the impression that BJJ blackbelt > not remotely proficient in anything grappling related. If Roy COULDN'T sink a sub against a novice grappler maybe his BJJ blackbelt should be investigated. If Roy's plan was to try and either get fancy or just toy with kimbo then he is just a fat asshole who the ufc would be better off without.
apart from no sub, he dominated kimbo on the ground.
Originally Posted by Hooded Justice
roy was saying before the fight, laying on the guy and tapping his head is enough to win, and that's all he was interested in doing. we've already discussed in this thread how roy was focused on winning with the least effort required.
besides, even for a black belt it can sometimes be tricky to submit a powerful man who knows even basic defense.
Well for all the nothing it is worth, I don't support or condone his strategy of waiting for ref stoppage but as it is not illegal I can't say it was wrong. I'm not saying he didn't dominate kimbo on the ground as a bjj blackbelt could it's just that having the strategy of waiting till the ref stops the fight is pretty weak sauce. It kind of defeats the purpose of the match imo which is a test of fighting skill between 2 men and roy's plan was to wait for a 3rd party to stop it for him. Why not just ask the ref who he thinks would win? It's not like the ref stopped it because kimbo was in dnager of bleading to death or suffering massive head trauma. He stopped it because one guy couldn't get out of the position and the other guy wouldn't take full advantage of it. I understand not wanting to get hurt but to me that shows that he was too scared to try and end the fight properly and so he waited for a bailout. Again perfectly legal but totally *****. And it is a bit disrespectful to sandbag against an opponent for whatever reason. He is risking just as much as you by being in the ring.
I dont see it as scared, but mor that he realises he has to fight a series of fights in a relatively short time period, and he is trying to fight safe in order to be in the best shape possible for each of those fights.
Now that the IFL is defunct, Roy needs a new home, and he intends on making the ufc that home. If this was a ppv headliner i'd be dissapointed, but its not, its only a qualifier, and as long as he wins his fights, he doesn't have to worry about whether the fans think he's exciting, or worry whether Dana was impressed enough to bring him back for the fight night, he gets the contract. Once he's in the ufc, it remains to be seen how he will fight
i agree that the fight was pretty sad, Kimbo pretty much got pwned as soon as he was taken down. Dana White tried to "talk up" Kimbo's performance, of course, because he wants to keep him in the show, to improve his ratings, he's not stupid. but no matter what he says or tries to convince the public, Kimbo did horrible, and he's very lucky that Roy Nelson doesn't have a vicious "ground and pound". Seriously, Kimbo would get hurt bad trying to compete against the elite UFC fighters. We'll just have to wait and see what happens…
Roy Nelson also has nothing to brag about, other than getting the "W". He's carrying a gut and isn't exactly as charming as GSP or Silva. Even Dana White trash talked Nelson after the fight. But no matter what everyone says, he did have "positional" dominance over Kimbo on the ground.
what's sad is that Kimbo didn't even attempt to improve his position, no shrimping, no bucking, nothing...he just...laid there. The referee was even "generous" to him, giving him plenty of opportunities to do something..anything. I think the fight was stopped, not because Nelson was "dominating" but rather because Kimbo "submitted" mentally by not doing anything.
i really have to disagree there. he faced another man in a cage fight and demonstrated that his skills trumped those of his opponent by quite a margin. his basic positioning and control was excellent. he proved that he was the better equipped fighter, and i enjoyed watching that.
Originally Posted by Hooded Justice
but yeah, the point of all that positioning is to work for a finish. he really did take advantage of the rules for a safe victory. i don't really have a problem with that though, especially in a sport context.
really, i think the onus was on kimbo to get roy off him and prove that he had the skills to deserve being there in the first place. he didn't achieve that.
i'm looking forward to roy's next match when he faces someone a little better.
Dana is pissed at Roy and he should be. That was the most boring thing to watch since Chuck's debut on Dancing With The Stars. TUF needs to generate interest in the fighters, and through them the sport. After that fight, millions of televisions around the world were switched to another channel.
Roy could be the first TUF champion to lose by winning. After TUF is over, I'd sure as hell not want to give him any more fights than I had to, if I were Dana. Roy may want to win TUF, but he also needs to think about what happens afterwards.
Originally Posted by pauli
Originally Posted by melvin_peebles
A few things:
First, Hooded Justice watched a BJJ black belt not submit an opponent and, from there, proceeded to the opinion that he was unable to submit that man. That doesn't follow. "Didn't" is not "couldn't."
Second, the referee stops the match in all cases, and while I understand Herb Dean's point, to say that Kimbo wasn't in danger isn't actually very accurate. He was completely trapped and immobile, with no idea how to escape, under a very large man who was hitting him in the face. The fight was over. Nelson ended the fight by taking and holding complete dominance over his opponent.
If that's not true, fine. You tell me what Kimbo was going to do to escape that position and stop taking unanswered punches to his face (yes, yes, sissy arm punches.) Did you think maybe Nelson would punch himself out and let the position go?
I should admit here that this is not just about this match for me. I absolutely detest the attitude, widely prevalent in the NFL for one, that certain ways of winning are "exciting" and others are "boring." I was an offensive lineman, and maybe I have a chip on my shoulder. As far as I'm concerned, if you're bored watching an elite athlete do his thing because he doesn't have the "right" look or he doesn't do the same things as the last guy you thought was exciting, you are watching the wrong sport.
Does anyone know where to find the footage of the IFL fight between Nelson and Ben Rothwell? I saw it on TV several years ago, and I still remember it as epic. A lot of people that are doubting Nelson's heart (fighting spirit and cardio) might have their eyes opened if they watched it.
Either way, I pretty much agree with everything Don Gwinn said. Nelson had no obligation to make Kimbo look good. I've actually grown to like Kimbo after watching the show, but he was just outclassed. I didn't think Kimbo was as helpless on the ground as people are making him out to be though. He nearly had a couple of reversals. Against an average opponent, I think he'd have got back to his feet. Nelson's control was just too good.
a little bit off the subject, but here's what i think is Kimbo's major problem, and it's not really his fault...
when he fought in the street, he knew basic boxing, what made him dangerous what that he would "pressure" people and used his "pure aggression" to dominate his opponents. he wasn't in his head, he was "confident" and plowed through them.
but now, he wants to go legit as an MMA contender. but the problem is this, he's at the "early learning" stages, we all go through it, it's the stage where you're very "in your head" because you're trying to make sure you do things the right way you're being taught. but it makes you slow and it makes you "second guess" yourself alot. it's over years of continuous training that you can start "letting go" because the correct movements have become second nature now.
And that's Kimbo's major obstacle, time...time to get to the "letting go" stage. he's trapped in the "early learning" stages but he, Dana White, the public are all forcing him into the ring against professionals, its a no win situation for him IMO.
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