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  1. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/30/2009 10:46pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dsimon3387 View Post
    Yes this problem comes up periodically. It does not make it any more palitable that MMA is experiencing it now. what it amounts to is selling out to give students what they want. Which it effect dilutes the art (white belts can teach this program yeehee!) and probably minimizes the fitness aspects as well.

    Perfect example: Kick boxing became so much more popular than karate because it was aerobic and could be done as combos and line drills en masse.... Eventually karate became kick boxing. Suddenly much as you see today, you saw guys doing karate bouncing up and down. Kick boxiing destroyed karate.. to this day very few people fight with karate. Mas Oyamas guys brought it back partially but you still see karate guys bouncing around like TKD fighters because kick boxing and kick boxing rules was what students wanted.

    You need fitness for MMA but MMA is not fitness. When your goal becomes to dilute the practice because people don't want the real deal you are fucking up the art. Its why a lot of arts suck now.

    I welcome anyone to use martial arts and Yoga as part of fitness. I used to do it as a trainer and it is great stuff... but when you start to reduce your art to fitness it is yet another variation of give the public what they think martial arts ought to be, not what it is because otherwise they will go to someone else.
    You guys are all fucking morons who can't see the forest for the trees. If you were a bit more familiar with Graden's UBC training you would know this is not good for the sport.

    I'm all for fitness MMA. I think it's a good thing. I've been doing it for two years. There's a difference between teaching it from an experienced person and learning it from somebody who's taken a crash course.

    I guess none of you remember all the injuries caused by inexperienced instructors teaching cardio kickboxing and karate in the early days.

    You sure you're members of bullshido?

    This must be fucking MAP.
  2. Snake Plissken is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/30/2009 10:50pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega the Merciless View Post
    You guys are all fucking morons who can't see the forest for the trees. If you were a bit more familiar with Graden's UBC training you would know this is not good for the sport.

    I'm all for fitness MMA. I think it's a good thing. I've been doing it for two years. There's a difference between teaching it from an experienced person and learning it from somebody who's taken a crash course.

    I guess none of you remember all the injuries caused by inexperienced instructors teaching cardio kickboxing and karate in the early days.

    You sure you're members of bullshido?

    This must be fucking MAP.
    We are all still a bit tender from the ATT Level 1 Certified School debate.
  3. Dsimon3387 is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/30/2009 11:28pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega the Merciless View Post
    You guys are all fucking morons who can't see the forest for the trees. If you were a bit more familiar with Graden's UBC training you would know this is not good for the sport.

    I'm all for fitness MMA. I think it's a good thing. I've been doing it for two years. There's a difference between teaching it from an experienced person and learning it from somebody who's taken a crash course.

    I guess none of you remember all the injuries caused by inexperienced instructors teaching cardio kickboxing and karate in the early days.

    You sure you're members of bullshido?

    This must be fucking MAP.
    ?

    I think you misunderstood my post... You put me on the wrong side of the fence!
    This thread never was a high quality conversation - My friend vern Gilbert on the William Acquier thread.

    The fight in question having started over who owns which piece of rubble. Nicko1;2233174 On the Acquier Kim Fiasco slash thread.
  4. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/01/2009 11:48am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dsimon3387 View Post
    ?

    I think you misunderstood my post... You put me on the wrong side of the fence!
    I was tired last night. Sorry.:violent1:
  5. Dsimon3387 is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/01/2009 12:29pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Omega the Merciless View Post
    I was tired last night. Sorry.:violent1:
    No worries, I agree with you and the issue of fitness and the arts has been a pet peeve of mine. You said one thing also that never occured to me but is so true: Joe studio owner loves the idea that he can now have an unqualified very physically fit beginner handle a class. But whats going to happen to those students when they develop every bad habit on the book? How many years will they have to spend correcting and then relearning so they could do a fitness class?

    I always managed my own classes and dojo when I had it so it never occured to me this level of insidiousness.

    You know what I say Omega.... Let all those who like this fitness approach to martial skills work with students who come out of those classes for a while... I know i have I bet they change their tune.
    This thread never was a high quality conversation - My friend vern Gilbert on the William Acquier thread.

    The fight in question having started over who owns which piece of rubble. Nicko1;2233174 On the Acquier Kim Fiasco slash thread.
  6. Lights Out is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/01/2009 2:48pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dsimon3387 View Post
    I welcome anyone to use martial arts and Yoga as part of fitness. I used to do it as a trainer and it is great stuff... but when you start to reduce your art to fitness it is yet another variation of give the public what they think martial arts ought to be, not what it is because otherwise they will go to someone else.
    Just in case this was aimed at my previous comment, I think I need to clarify something:

    What I was saying is that I don't see any problem in marketing the fitness part of MMA as means of gaining new students.

    But marketing doesn't mean watering something down and or changing it, just pointintg out that aspect in advertising or whatever.

    Again, I don't know what UBC is about.

    Besides:

    Kick boxing became so much more popular than karate because it was aerobic and could be done as combos and line drills en masse....
    That's what I meant when I reffered to grappling in my prevoius post, there's no way of turning grappling into such line drills en masse. And you can't take out grappling and still call it MMA.
  7. Dsimon3387 is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/01/2009 3:49pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lights Out View Post
    Just in case this was aimed at my previous comment, I think I need to clarify something:

    What I was saying is that I don't see any problem in marketing the fitness part of MMA as means of gaining new students.

    But marketing doesn't mean watering something down and or changing it, just pointintg out that aspect in advertising or whatever.

    Again, I don't know what UBC is about.

    Besides:



    That's what I meant when I reffered to grappling in my prevoius post, there's no way of turning grappling into such line drills en masse. And you can't take out grappling and still call it MMA.
    It wasn't.

    There are many appropriate ways of turning people's lightbulbs on when it comes to fatigue and abililty... thats what fitness is for in the martial arts. We used to have a drill when I was training prison guards with sensei Ben.. Youwould fight and you had to be able to fight for 30 seconds with everything you had because during a lock down the door would start to close and all the guards had to be past the door in that time... anyone left behind was in a hostage situation....

    Now if you take Ken student who trains MMA... if he wants to fight a match he does not need 30 seconds of intense fear induced life and death struggle... he needs to go what? 5 minute rounds for half an hour? (I am an MMA dunce excuse me haha).... that conditioning does not occur in a vacuum. So you need that aspect.

    Omega tends to raise points that resonate with me as a teacher haha. In this case his point about the role of conditioning is something that I have struggled with when I deal with students. Its the responsability it takes to be in the proper condition. I do not operate a full facility. Hence I tell my students what to do in a gym to condition properly... I do the same. If they are not prepared they (or I) for that matter will break. Now I would love to condition with my crew but I have not the time, so this is how we do it.

    What you see though is teachers who simply do conditioning and let noviates teach under the guise of conditioning and this is wrong ****. My friend went to a ju Jutsu school and saw this.. it happens all the time. Do you need to pay me to do fifty pushups? No!!!! You will have to pay someone a lot though to undo all teh bad habits that poor teaching of body mechanics causes.

    So no this is not about your comment or about minimizing the role of conditioning. It is about people confusing aspects of one and the other.
    This thread never was a high quality conversation - My friend vern Gilbert on the William Acquier thread.

    The fight in question having started over who owns which piece of rubble. Nicko1;2233174 On the Acquier Kim Fiasco slash thread.
  8. LI GUY 1 is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/01/2009 11:07pm

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    I'll add something else:
    Our BoxFit program had a lot of members. It is cheap. They do not spar or do any ground technique (though they learn proper stand up technique, limited of course).

    However we got a few students off of it who excel in our MMA program. They even said they would never have considered doing MMA, but starting out in BoxFit made it happen, and they had great striking technique when they crossed over.

    As long as you do not let your fitness class get away with horrible Tae Bo technique, then you are OK. Some people just want fitness. Give it to them. You do not have to sacrifice technique for it though.

    We pride ourselves in the fact that our BoxFit members can string together combos, head movement, and proper form better than most schools around us.
  9. King Sleepless is offline
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    Posted On:
    10/01/2009 11:21pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kagan View Post
    How would this become any different than Cardio kickbox, Tae Bo, Boxercise, or any of the other umpteen different aerobic workout themed crazes like Firefighter's or NYC Ballet?
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kagan View Post
    Gyms which offer these other programs don't generally think they are "legit" in the sense it'll produce fighters ... or ballet dancers, or firefighters. So, how does it prove the point?
    Really? REALLY?

    Look this would be different if this were being sent to say... a gym that focused solely on fitness. Clearly you're conTRYving very hard to be the "devil's advocate" but end up looking more like 1.2 in a sexual situation. You don't know what you're doing, you're doing it poorly and fumbling with your penis in your hand.

    A gym that offers cardio kickboxing clearly tells people this doesn't teach you to fight. Cardio Ballet classes do not tell you that you're going to become a ballerina. However, if you're a gym that offers martial arts and self defense, you can't, absolutely, absolutely can't have a class like this. You can't have a "cardio kickboxing" class. Maybe a "Fitness class" or "conditioning class".

    My dojo has a cardio day on saturdays. It's a fitness class, we do "fitness judo" as it were. Nobody's learning technique but a lot of it is Judo based. However parents, girlfriends, etc. show up to the class. It's not called "cardio judo" or "fitness judo" or any trite **** like that. It's "Cardio and conditioning" class.

    Quote Originally Posted by LI GUY 1 View Post
    Your'e just jealous. We do this kind of and they love it. The only difference is our instructors are boxers, kickboxers, MMA competitors, etc. We also have separate MMA classes. But to not offer something to those who just want to workout is to miss out, some people don't care about fighting but they have a lot of fun working out.

    http://www.mylitv.com/view_video.php...411c861cf78ef7
    Calling it "fitness mma" or "cardio kickboxing" no matter what claims you make to people give them a false sense of security.

    Go ask any chick who takes a "cardio kickboxing" class at a gym if she knows how to punch. She'll tell you yes. Yes she does. When clearly she doesn't.

    **** you idiots for making me post. Don't you know I have something big coming and I want to make a fantastic return with a manificient reveal.

    Fucking idiots.
  10. Cybren is offline

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    Posted On:
    10/02/2009 2:20am


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    Cool thanks insightful post sirc
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