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  1. Grey Owl is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/29/2006 11:52am


     Style: Karate, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thank you Hellis

    I am sorry if I mislead you Mr Mayo began teaching in the late 40s (interesting that this predates Mr Abbe's) and treated Mr Abbe following his arrival in the 50s.

    The fact that Kyu Shin Do students haven't heard of him is kind of irrelevant as the association between messers Abbe and Mayo is well documented in years of correspondences between the two. As I have already said a collaborative work by the two men also exists. I have also seen photographs of Mr Abbe and Mr Mayo demonstrating techniques not used by the BJC.

    I have never challenged the fact that the philosophy of Kyu Shin Do was introduced to the UK by Mr Abbe.

    My serious concern is that there seems to have been a deliberate attempt to write Mr Mayo out. In the past a rift has been alluded to between Mr Mayo and Mr Abbe's successor, following his return to Japan, that may be the source of this ill feeling.

    As for the language barrier, Mr Mayo spoke more than just English.

    I am only after the truth and, having personally seen the evidence of Mr Mayo and Mr Abbe in collaboration, I am convinced. I am pressing for the information to made available via the Mayo Shin Do website as the evidence should interest a great many people.

    It is interesting that the BJC is a sport orientated organisation as BOTH Mr Abbe and Mr Mayo were moving away from this practice.

    "The sport of Judo is now for the making of champions. This is the wrong way. Contests are only necessary at times so that progress can be seen." Kenshiro Abbe

    Could you clarify for me please, Judo is not my expertise.

    Many Thanks

    Grey Owl
  2. OnceLost is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/29/2006 12:05pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Ke?po, MMA ultra-newb

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    My serious concern is that there seems to have been a deliberate attempt to write Mr Mayo out.
    I am only after the truth and, having personally seen the evidence of Mr Mayo and Mr Abbe in collaboration, I am convinced.
    I say, quite seriously, that this is one of the more interesting threads on Bullshido (given that it lacks TKD chicks), and I have no background knowledge about the politics of the style. I know this doesn't contribute to the debate, but I wanted to let you gents know that I'm impressed by the civil, open dialogue here and hope it continues!

    So, was it an attempt to write-out a person or an attempt to 'write in' a history?

    That said, what were those videos from - a test, demo, normal class? I'm not quick to critisize...wait, yes I am. Perhaps I'm used to tradition karate movements with power and focus, but those black belts me wondering who promoted them.
  3. Rock Ape is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/29/2006 12:11pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Owl
    As for the language barrier, Mr Mayo spoke more than just English.
    Thanks for your continued contribution to this thread, I for one would be very interested to see the information which you suggest exists (said with due respect)

    I would like to further clarify, are you suggesting that Mr. Mayo had good conversational even possibly technical skills in Nihongo ? If that is the case I'd be very interested in learning where Mr. Mayo acquired his Japanese language skills from, remembering of course that Japan was still engaging in her campaign of war through to 1945 thus I strongly doubt there were educational institutions offering Nihongo during this time however, I do accept that Mr. Mayo may well have gained his language skills before that time but unless he gained these from a Japanese national or lived in Japan, obtaining Japanese language skills in Europe in the 40's and 50' would have been *almost* impossible.

    I think its also worth remembering that BUDO terminology would be classed as "technical" rather than "conversational" because there are many phrases and terms used even the average "Japanese national" today wouldn't place context with.. An example being uchikaiten 内回転

    I may also be wrong but I understand that MSD uses almost exclusively English terms for techniques, I find that a bit odd if the founder was a Nihongo speaker and advocator of the language.
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Owl
    My serious concern is that there seems to have been a deliberate attempt to write Mr Mayo out. In the past a rift has been alluded to between Mr Mayo and Mr Abbe's successor, following his return to Japan, that may be the source of this ill feeling.
    I'm in contact with the Otani family, I'll pop them a letter and ask the question.
    Last edited by Rock Ape; 12/29/2006 12:13pm at .
  4. Grey Owl is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/29/2006 12:28pm


     Style: Karate, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hi Dave

    These are my personal statements so please don't send them to the website!!

    I have to confess my computer is too old and crusty to be able to play the clips but I did go through them a couple of months ago. However I believe I am actually in some of them and, if memory serves, they are about seven years old. So this is before I began teaching and approaching my practice differently ie more empirically.

    Personally I would have chosen better clips as the one labelled sparring isn't and there needs to be more quality control. The solo kata I am happy with but as with looking at old school photos I cringe a bit at some of it.

    The sparring one is actually an exercise where one attacks and the other defends in a slow manner to ensure correct technique. I am aware of how wussy this looks to hard stylists but the benefits are considerable in terms of focus and fluidity.

    I would pefer to see some of the full speed sparring where takedowns and groundfighting is incorporated and any technique is permissable (obviously attacks are controlled to prevent loss of eyes, windpipes, testicles and large clumps of flesh) I would also like to see some multiple opponent sparring on the site as both activities are regularly practiced.

    Again, if memory serves, the footage comes from a junior session that is used largely as a warm up by seniors so, in short, no I am not 100% happy that the clips provide a true representation of Mayo Shin Do. There is no Judo or Kickboxing for a start and I feel these are important elements. Full sparring seems to have been omitted making us look like dancers and there is no footage of Mr Collins when I myself am in possession of several hours worth. Mr Mayo's footage, light hearted as it may be, is excellent!

    I am glad you mentioned these clips as I now realise how desparately they need an overhaul. In fact, the whole website needs an overhaul and it is largely down to Bullshido that I know what suggestion to make so, I guess, I owe you guys one.

    Again, many thanks

    Grey Owl (tragically not a reference to literature but the creature that lives near my house.)
  5. Rock Ape is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/29/2006 12:37pm

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Owl
    Hi Dave

    These are my personal statements so please don't send them to the website!!
    Website ?? I'm not sending anything anywhere mate.

    By the way what's your first name... I feel rather stupid corresponding with a Grey Owl.
  6. Grey Owl is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/29/2006 12:55pm


     Style: Karate, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    YES! I recognise the name Otani I believe this was the name mentioned by higher ranking black belts (please remember I am not claiming to represent Mayo Shin Do I am looking for answers and questionning the history I have been taught).

    MSD does use English for techniques, I personally believe this to be an advantage. As to what language Mr Abbe and Mr Mayo used frankly I couldn't care less. Sorry.

    OnceLost

    Hey! I'm one of those black belts (I was graded by Derek Collins and I think I also now have a thick skin) and ,yes, you are too used to the traditional (robocop) ((really no disrespect by those guys mock us too!!)) karate movements as this has little bearing on MSD.

    I also loath politics but I seem to be the only Mayo Shin Do practitioner who is willing to respond. I know that response is also discouraged in Mayo Shin Do but having trained with people from other systems I felt it was about time someone threw their hat into to the ring.

    Many Thanks

    Grey Owl
  7. Grey Owl is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/29/2006 1:08pm


     Style: Karate, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hi Dave

    That's a relief! My parents loved cowboy movies and named me Clint. What is Koryu? (I think there is nore but my crusty computer won't scroll!!) Is it a style of Iaido?

    Many Thanks

    Grey Owl or Clint as you prefer.
  8. OnceLost is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/29/2006 1:20pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Ke?po, MMA ultra-newb

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hey! I'm one of those black belts (I was graded by Derek Collins and I think I also now have a thick skin) and ,yes, you are too used to the traditional (robocop) ((really no disrespect by those guys mock us too!!)) karate movements as this has little bearing on MSD.
    No offense. We utilize a number of 'soft' movements, but the clips looked like a 'hard' blocking pattern performed 'softly.' And the kicks didn't do much for me...just my opinion - it was wasn't movement I'm used to seeing. I look forward to seeing the other video you described.
  9. Rock Ape is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/29/2006 1:40pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Owl
    What is Koryu? Is it a style of Iaido?
    Hi Clint,

    ko ryu 古 流 "old school" or old method.

    The term refers to martial ways created before the Meiji Restoration (1866 if my memory is correct) Anything after that is "gendai" or modern. Any art created after the abolition of the Samurai class system cannot be accurately described as a "samurai art" or "battlefield art"

    Some gendai examples being : Aikido, Judo, Kendo

    Some koryu examples being : Muso Shinden Ryu, Yagyu Shin Kage Ryu, Tenshinsho-den Katori Shinto Ryu
  10. Grey Owl is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/29/2006 2:07pm


     Style: Karate, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hi OnceLost

    The hard blocks you refer to are not performed in the same fashion as say Wado Ryu. The rotation of the forearm is used to redirect rather than knock away the attacking limb. I have been told that Wado Ryu uses soft movements aswell I taught a 2nd dan Wado Ryu exponent and the so called soft stuff was simply...not.

    The Kicking kata on the site...hmmm, yes, I agree, padwork would have been a better representation.

    Grey Owl
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