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  1. Rock Ape is offline
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    Watch and Shoot !

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    Posted On:
    12/25/2006 8:43am

    staff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Grey Owl...

    I have taken your advice and emailed Mr. Collins asking for clarification however; having checked my research/sources I found the following information, I wonder if you might be in a position to offer an opinion:

    Mr Gerry Gyngell (a direct judo student of Abbe Sensei from 1955) contacted Mr. Collins requesting for information relating the public claims made by Mr Mayo in connection with Abbe Sensei. Mr Collins said that he would find the information and fwd it on. That was the last that Mr. Gyngell ever heard on the subject.

    It is important to note that Mr Gyngel also worked in the British Judo Council office along with Abbe Sensei and Bill Woods, he states that he has never ever heard of a Mr Mayo. In addition to physically working with Abbe Kenshiro on behalf of the BJC and being one of Abbe Sensei's long term students, Mr. Gyngell was also a member of the British Judo team which travelled to Tokyo in 1964 for the Olympic game held there that year; Mr. Gyngell is a valuable and credible source of information relating to British Judo indeed he kindly clarified the rather erroneous claims of a Mr. Leslie Hart aka Les McLean [full investigation here] Who claimed to have been a member of the GB Judo squad and likewise claimed to have had a good friendship with Abbe Kenshiro. Neither were actually true.

    I think it is important to also remember that several clubs/organisations currently claim/use the term "kyu shin do" and to my personal knowledge, Abbe Kenshiro never bequeathed either the name or the philosophy associated with it to anyone or any organisation. Including Mr. Mayo.

    Regards

    Dave Humm
  2. Grey Owl is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/27/2006 2:31pm


     Style: Karate, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Homeopathic? None! Naturopathic. Considerable.
  3. Grey Owl is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/27/2006 3:00pm


     Style: Karate, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hi Dave

    Mr Mayo not being given credit does not surprise me (he disliked Sensei O'Tani ((in some quarters Mr Abbe's successor)) and, I believe, the feeling was mutual). The BJC was a sporting aspect of Judo Mr Mayo dissapproved of (he felt strength was gaining dominance over technique) so his disassociation is consistant with his beliefs.

    The fact that Mr Gyngel has not heard of Mr Mayo is disappointing but expected. As I previously stated I have first hand seen the evidence of a collaboration between Messers Mayo and Abbe (photographic and in Mr Abbe's own hand).

    Leslie Hart I have never heard of either and he has no connection with Mayo Shin Do that I am aware of.

    I am very pleased that you have contacted Mr Collins. He did some time ago mention recieving a telephone call regarding the origins of Mayo Shin Do perhaps this was Mr Gyngell.

    Following your response I contaced Mr Collins and he has stated an intention to make the evidence I have alluded to available via the Mayo Shin Do website.

    As I stated in my initial post I do not want this to become an unpleasant exchange. I am very interested in any information regarding Mr Abbe's training in the mid 50s. Also I would be very interested in your veiw of Zen Judo as it very closely resembles Mayo Shin Do Judo

    Yours in respect

    Grey Owl
  4. OnceLost is offline
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    Here's looking at you, squid.

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    Posted On:
    12/27/2006 3:01pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Ke?po, MMA ultra-newb

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Grey Owl,
    I'm new on the scene of this one, but let me point out a few parts of your post in the spirit of holiday cheer:

    I am not interested in a protracted arguement
    One of the major identifications of a fanatic is the refusal to even consider arguments that counter one's own perspective and fraud of any type requires substantial investigation. I'm not calling you a fanatic or labeling anything as fraud, but protracted argument is what brings the light of truth to the dark halls of bullshido.

    I would like to point out that Mayo Shin Do is practiced and taught by security professionals (bouncers, bodyguards etc) and members of the armed forces.
    I can say the same about almost every martial art currently practiced (probably even yellow bamboo). It would be better to claim that members of the groups you've mentioned have found what they learned at the school you support to be useful and effective in and of itself.

    . Its methods have also been tested in the sporting arena Khon Ha Kickboxing was devised by the current head of Mayo Shin Do, Derek Collins and has produced many champions in Europe.
    The only decent resource I could find (http://www.msdkarate.com/kickboxing.htm) for Khon Ha Kickboxing was a single school that said only about 20% of the kickboxers competed. Can you provide names of the champions, as well as the competitions they won? Helpful hint - if all the competitions are Mayo Shin Do tournaments, it isn't going to look good for you.

    Forgive me for relying on Wikipedia, but is Mr. Mayo a Doctor of Osteopathy as recognized in the US or outside of the US? The difference is actually graduating from a medical facility as a fully licensed physican.

    Can you provide an example of the 'considerable' influence of naturopathy in Mr. Mayo's MA?

    I look forward to hearing from you!
  5. Grey Owl is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/27/2006 3:34pm


     Style: Karate, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hi OnceLost

    Protracted = Long drawn out; tedious. Source OED.

    I have a Master's Degree, reserach and agrument a speciality. Frankly this is very, very old ground. Again, refer to protracted definition.

    Yellow Bamboo! Really! The people I mentioned both teach and practice Mayo Shin Do.

    As I am not a Kickboxing practitioner (well a little) I do not claim to speak for them and there are no Mayo Shin Do rules competitions for kickboxing it is open!! To find our kickboxing champs check out the WUMA website they were there last I looked. If not I will endeavour to find them for you.

    Outside the US. You may like to know that architects qualifying outside the US who have over 30 years experience are not recognised by the US authority. The practice of Architecture or Osteopahty is not Indiginous to the US!
  6. OnceLost is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/27/2006 4:04pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Ke?po, MMA ultra-newb

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Just to shake things up, I'll go in reverse order -

    The practice of Architecture or Osteopahty is not Indiginous to the US!
    Actually, Osteopathy IS indiginous to the US - I direct you to the wikipedia article (while admiting the potential for error there). I assume you mean it isn't limited to the US, which I quite agree with. But doctors of osteopathy here are licensed medical doctors, which is not necessarily true in the rest of the world.

    What did that have to do with architecture?

    To find our kickboxing champs check out the WUMA website they were there last I looked. If not I will endeavour to find them for you.
    I'm looking around right now - not an easy website to navigate. None of the "Fighters of the Month" have Khon Ha Kickboxing as a style - I'm still looking, though. Okay, I'm done looking. The website gives me a headache. If you can find somebody, I'd appreciate it, because the 'full contact' link doesn't identify the fighters by style.

    Yellow Bamboo! Really! The people I mentioned both teach and practice Mayo Shin Do.
    Yes, and I can think of police, bouncers, and military who train in TKD and a large number of other arts that aren't generally well regarded. I used Yellow Bamboo as an example, because I imagine that there are (delusional) military and law enforcement folks who practice that as well. My point was that claiming that security professionals and military folk teach and study your art is neither unique nor particularly impressive.

    I have a Master's Degree, reserach and agrument a speciality. Frankly this is very, very old ground. Again, refer to protracted definition.
    I'm quite aware of what protracted means, and I took your use of it to read, "I don't want to deal with opinions that differ from my own because I don't want to have to provide proof about anything." Forgive me if I have mistaken you for any number of other thread necromancers who throw in a quick, "I study that style and love it - so THERE!" and then leave without responding to questions.

    And it may be old ground, but you brought it back to life.

    I'm not sure what your Master's degree has to do with anything, other than virtual chest thumping and warning me that you're used to arguing. My wife has a Master's degree, so I suppose you could say that I'm used to winning arguments against people with a Master's degree (not that she would agree, you understand).

    Oh, and let me point this out, lest your sesquipidalian tendencies foster some sense of your superiority:
    I have a Master's Degree, reserach and agrument a speciality.
    For someone with a Master's degree, you managed to spell "research," "argument," and "specialty" incorrectly. And it's not a properly constructed sentence. I'm impressed. Not that I'm free of typos, but I've never claimed to have a Master's degree. If it makes you feel better, your writing is far better than some PhD's I've had to interact with.

    Finally, keeping with my 'reverse order theme' - Hi! Welcome to the board, I look forward to useful contributions!
  7. Grey Owl is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/27/2006 4:08pm


     Style: Karate, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hi OnceLost

    I notice you practice Kenpo. Does you system not receive similar criticism to those you have just levied? Yet inspite of this remains an effective system of self defence?

    Having said that I have great respect for Ed Parker and his teachings. I look forward to further correspondences.
  8. Grey Owl is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/27/2006 4:14pm


     Style: Karate, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hi Oncelost

    Sentence construction, You started one with "And", a conjunction. Like me you are also not perfect.

    I do not have a typing qualification and admit research was a type o. As for 'specialty' and 'argument' the OED backs me up in not you.
  9. Grey Owl is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/27/2006 4:18pm


     Style: Karate, BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hi Oncelost

    I feel I am being rude to you. Please accept my apology. I regret mouthing off about the Master's but who is not guilty of pride? My wife is an architect and my anger was directed at those inside the US who do not respect her ability or experience.

    I hopewe can start again in a more civilised manner.

    Yours

    Grey Owl
  10. OnceLost is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/27/2006 4:24pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Ke?po, MMA ultra-newb

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Howdy.

    Just for fun, I'll go in order this time.
    Ohh, I can think of a new and novel defense - I'll turn the tables and try for a strong offense.

    I notice you practice Kenpo. Does you system not receive similar criticism to those you have just levied? Yet inspite of this remains an effective system of self defence?
    I do, in fact, practice kenpo. I do not identify kenpo as "my system." There's far too much bullshit in ke?po, including some where I train. I feel no special "style loyalty" because I happen to share a style name with clowns. Yes, I believe what I study is effective self defense, but I've also put a great deal of it to use when I was a cop (for just under 5 years). And yes, I've taught bouncers, cops, and military folks. It's really nothing special.

    And I fail to see any criticism that I have levied against your style - I was trying to contructively criticise the WAY you were defending your style. If you would be so kind, please point out where I levied criticism against your MA? You made some claims (about the kickboxing champions) and I asked for validation - that isn't criticism.

    Having said that I have great respect for Ed Parker and his teachings.
    That makes exactly one of us. The guy might have been alright, but I have very little pleasant to say about the way most of his schools are run (or most ke?po schools, for that matter).

    I look forward to further correspondences.
    As do I, especially if you respond to my previous post.

    Let's go back to some things in that post:
    Can you provide an example of the 'considerable' influence of naturopathy in Mr. Mayo's MA?
    Can you provide names of the champions, as well as the competitions they won?
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