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  1. jspeedy is online now
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    Posted On:
    3/11/2012 11:42am


     Style: FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Eskrima death matches?

    I'm writing this thread to discuss the reality of FMA death matches. On some FMA sites it seems to be a source of controversy.

    I've heard anecdotal tales of my style's GM winning "deathmatches" and other masters as well. I get the impression that the name deathmatch sounds more dramatic and that although death may have been more likely in a match is wasn't like a "two man enter one man leave scenario".

    What were common rule sets for these matches?

    I imagine it changes with the context of the deathmatch, be it a friendly although dangerous duel or a challenge meant to deface the looser.

    Was any padding or protective gear worn?

    I would think modern challenges would involve some protective gear but perhaps the older death matches were more "alive".

    Are deathmatches just a myth? How frrequently did they occur?

    I've also heard that if someone claimed GM status in they might just be ambushed and killed.

    All I know about these matches is what i've heard which isn't reliable and unbiased. Where can I find information on the nature of these fights? Other FMA bullies please share your knowledge.
  2. Diesel_tke is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/11/2012 12:08pm

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     Style: stick,Taiji, mountainbike

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'll look forward to the answers this gets, because there are a lot of practitioners who have done there history lessons on here!!

    I've been wondering the same thing because all I have been able to find is stories by GMs and their students. But then again, that is the way of things in FMA, from what I've come to learn!

    I've only been able to find reference to the last death match which was held in Hawaii in 1948.

    They were talking about it here:

    http://www.fmatalk.com/showthread.ph...-FMA-in-Hawaii

    And here where they talk about Floro Villabrille competing in matches where people often died.

    http://www.villabrillelargusakali.com/?page_id=142
    Last edited by Diesel_tke; 3/11/2012 12:15pm at . Reason: Link fail.
    Combatives training log.

    Gezere: paraphrase from Bas Rutten, Never escalate the level of violence in fight you are losing. :D

    Drum thread

    Pavel Tsatsouline: kettlebell workouts give you “cardio without the dishonour of aerobics”.
  3. jspeedy is online now
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    Posted On:
    3/11/2012 3:45pm


     Style: FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Those are some decent sources Diesel. I like FMA talk, the forum is a little sparse though these days. Those articles kind of gloss over the whole death match subject in very matter of fact manner. It always seems like stories tell a master fought in death matches and some people died. Sources never mention when the death match was, the nature of the match, and who was killed and how.

    This quote from Diesel's 2nd linked article raises an eyebrow:

    "Many who competed in these brutal bouts did die, or suffered permanent injury. No body armor was permitted, and elbow, knee and head strikes were common at close range."

    Maybe I'm just reading too much into it but the wording seems to imply that elbow,knee, and head strikes were less common at far ranges or that these strikes wouldn't be expected in a death match.
  4. Diesel_tke is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/11/2012 4:04pm

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     Style: stick,Taiji, mountainbike

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yeah, and I remember reading an article from Mark Denny that said that he was talking to a GM who said that these two masters were going to fight and they signed an agreement before the match that there would be no grappling. Then he showed him a picture of the fight and it was one of the masters being put into a headlock by the other one. So he was still pissed about it like 30 years later!! It was somewhere on the Dog Brothers forum.

    But it made me think that a lot of those old fights had pre-ordained rules that could be different for each fight.
    Combatives training log.

    Gezere: paraphrase from Bas Rutten, Never escalate the level of violence in fight you are losing. :D

    Drum thread

    Pavel Tsatsouline: kettlebell workouts give you “cardio without the dishonour of aerobics”.
  5. Chili Pepper is online now
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    Posted On:
    3/11/2012 4:57pm


     Style: Siling Labuyo Arnis

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    My understanding was that the participants signed a waiver saying that in the event of a death, the survivor wouldn't be held responsible.

    Really, I suspect the name lends far more drama to things than is otherwise warranted. If it were "two men enter, one man leaves" then they'd be using bolos, not whacking the **** out of each other with rattan.
  6. Diesel_tke is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/11/2012 9:44pm

    supporting member
     Style: stick,Taiji, mountainbike

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yeah, I can imagine how easily that would be misconstrued. Especially among some over zealous followers!

    "hey, my teacher fought in f-ing death matches!"
    "yeah, what does that mean?"
    "it means he f-ing killed dudes! That's what it means!!"
    Combatives training log.

    Gezere: paraphrase from Bas Rutten, Never escalate the level of violence in fight you are losing. :D

    Drum thread

    Pavel Tsatsouline: kettlebell workouts give you “cardio without the dishonour of aerobics”.
  7. Chili Pepper is online now
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    Posted On:
    3/11/2012 10:25pm


     Style: Siling Labuyo Arnis

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Diesel_tke View Post
    "hey, my teacher fought in f-ing death matches!"
    "yeah, what does that mean?"
    "it means he f-ing killed dudes! That's what it means!!"
    "... and his record is 3-1-2. ... Uh, wait."
  8. escrimador6 is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/12/2012 12:53am


     Style: FMA / BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The book Cebuano Eskrima: Beyond the Myth by Ned R. Nepangue and Celestino C. Macachor has a small section on dueling. They use the term bahad, which they translate to 'vow to seek vengeance'.

    From what the book says, these matches were kind of a "my escrima is better than your escrima" thing and 100% no-holds-barred.
    Last edited by escrimador6; 3/12/2012 1:09am at .
  9. Permalost is online now
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    Posted On:
    3/12/2012 11:21am

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think it was more like the death waiver in lei tai matches in China, or having police escorts with boxers as they came to the ring (and starting the whole "registered hands as lethal weapons" thing)- it was a way to sell a dramatic fight event, whether or not anyone died. And a liability waiver just makes sense- I've signed plenty that say if I die in dangerous activity X, its on my own head.

    My teacher comes from Villabrille Largusa kali, and Doce Pares eskrima under Cacoy Canete, so he probably has some interesting stories. I'll try to ask him next class. I read some of that article Diesel posted, and it talks about Snookie Sanchez putting out a candle with a bullwhip while blindfolded. My teacher actually shared an old VHS with us that had a video of that event.
  10. tim_stl is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/14/2012 12:28pm


     Style: fma

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Chili Pepper View Post
    My understanding was that the participants signed a waiver saying that in the event of a death, the survivor wouldn't be held responsible.

    Really, I suspect the name lends far more drama to things than is otherwise warranted. If it were "two men enter, one man leaves" then they'd be using bolos, not whacking the **** out of each other with rattan.
    This. I've heard 'death match' used in two contexts - one being where two people agree to fight with sticks, where one is not to be held responsible for death, and the other being two people fighting with bolos over some dispute (not a self-defense scenario).
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