218358 Bullies, 5247 online  
  • Register
Our Sponsors:

Results 1 to 10 of 12
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Sponsored Links Spacer Image
  1. lklawson is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Dayton, OH
    Posts
    964

    Posted On:
    9/22/2009 8:37am


     Style: Bowie

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Article: Recognizing and Dealing with Artifacts in Free Play

    Saw this article in another forum.

    http://www.newyorklongsword.com/articles/WMAB.pdf

    There are some parts which may be debatable or overstated but the object of inciting thoughtful consideration of these effects is well worth the investment of the read.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
  2. Polar Bear is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Glasgow
    Posts
    100

    Posted On:
    9/22/2009 9:13am


     Style: WMA - German Longsword

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Couple of obvious points filled with a lot of bollocks. Yes freeplay isn't perfect but then neither is any form of training, it's just better than going out there completely unprepared. Some of these guys spend far too much time in the books and not enough time at the business end of a sword. Take anyone who has only done drills vs. a highly experienced freeplay practioner and put them in a sword fight and my money will go on the freeplay practioner every time. I used both forms of training and I know which on make a more effective fighter. It's an argument I've heard a million times from "too deadly" numpties when talking about TMA vs MMA. It was bullshit then and is bullshit now.
  3. lklawson is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Dayton, OH
    Posts
    964

    Posted On:
    9/22/2009 10:21am


     Style: Bowie

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Polar Bear View Post
    Couple of obvious points filled with a lot of bollocks.
    Oh, I wouldn't go that far.

    It's only "obvious" to those of use who've spent time doing the bouting/freeplay in conjunction with other types of training and research.

    To people coming from certain other traditions, a lot of this can result in a "[face-palm] I never thought of that before, but you're right" moment. You can't assume that just because you figured it out fairly quickly or spent a few moments to work it through in your mind, that other folks automatically do so as well. In fact, ims, that's one of the hallmarks of your approach to the German tradition, isn't it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Polar Bear View Post
    Some of these guys spend far too much time in the books and not enough time at the business end of a sword. Take anyone who has only done drills vs. a highly experienced freeplay practioner and put them in a sword fight and my money will go on the freeplay practioner every time. I used both forms of training and I know which on make a more effective fighter.
    Umm... did you miss the part where the author says, "bouting is an extremely beneficial, and I dare say essential, aspect of training"? There was also an unstated implication that non-freeplay training was an important part as well, including drills and various kinds of test-cutting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Polar Bear View Post
    It's an argument I've heard a million times from "too deadly" numpties when talking about TMA vs MMA. It was bullshit then and is bullshit now.
    I don't think that the author has suggested or implied this anywhere. My reading of it was more along the lines of specific cautions to avoid "gaming" your freeplay and advice for maintaining the "treat it as if it were 'sharps'" mentality. Which, to be honest, seems like a pretty good statement even if it's just a reminder to those of us who've already figured that out.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
  4. PointyShinyBurn is online now
    PointyShinyBurn's Avatar

    Gnarly King of Half-Guard

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    London, UK
    Posts
    4,226

    Posted On:
    9/22/2009 11:08am

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So if a 'suicidal' opponent can cut your every time it's an artefact in the training method rather than a deficiency in your technique?

    Note that the foil 'right-of-way' system so heavily denigrated in the WMA community is an effort to solve this exact problem.
  5. lklawson is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Dayton, OH
    Posts
    964

    Posted On:
    9/22/2009 12:06pm


     Style: Bowie

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn View Post
    So if a 'suicidal' opponent can cut your every time it's an artefact in the training method rather than a deficiency in your technique?
    Yeah. That's actually one of the issues I have with this article, to be honest. I don't agree that 'the suicidal' automatically kills you. It's a LOT harder to stop someone not concerned with his own safety, and to do so without significant injury to yourself, but I wouldn't go so far as to say impossible.

    Some of the posters on the other forum where I saw this article posted feel the same way.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn View Post
    Note that the foil 'right-of-way' system so heavily denigrated in the WMA community is an effort to solve this exact problem.
    I don't agree completely. IMO, it is an effort to teach people not to be suicidal; to NOT suicidally attack with disregard for your own safety. I don't think it fully succeeds, but the idea of teaching people that parrying an attack is more important than trading touches seems like a pretty good idea to me. However, it really does nothing to teach a person how to defend against an attacker who is disregarding his own safety.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk

    [ed]
    P.S.,

    The biggest reason ROW is so "denigrated" in WMA is because, the reasoning goes, it teaches the person attacking to believe that the other fella, the one that you are attacking, is going to parry or void, when, that may not be the case. He may be a 'suicidal', stupid, or just untrained and attack into your attack, killing you with him.
    Last edited by lklawson; 9/22/2009 12:22pm at .
  6. PointyShinyBurn is online now
    PointyShinyBurn's Avatar

    Gnarly King of Half-Guard

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    London, UK
    Posts
    4,226

    Posted On:
    9/22/2009 3:48pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by lklawson View Post
    I don't agree completely. IMO, it is an effort to teach people not to be suicidal; to NOT suicidally attack with disregard for your own safety. I don't think it fully succeeds, but the idea of teaching people that parrying an attack is more important than trading touches seems like a pretty good idea to me. However, it really does nothing to teach a person how to defend against an attacker who is disregarding his own safety.
    Yeah, I agree with you that in that solves, at best, only half the problem.

    I just thought it was interesting that this same problem has been noted before, a patch applied to the rules to fix it, and then that patch been discarded in the later development of the epee rules; presumably (though I have no documentation of it), for the reasons you've pointed out. The same assumption that the attacker's instinct for self preservation can be relied upon seems to be what the article is advocating.
  7. lklawson is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Dayton, OH
    Posts
    964

    Posted On:
    9/22/2009 5:15pm


     Style: Bowie

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn View Post
    I just thought it was interesting that this same problem has been noted before, a patch applied to the rules to fix it, and then that patch been discarded in the later development of the epee rules; presumably (though I have no documentation of it), for the reasons you've pointed out.
    Yeah, good point.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointyShinyBurn View Post
    The same assumption that the attacker's instinct for self preservation can be relied upon seems to be what the article is advocating.
    Not exactly. In this case, the author seems to be advocating attacking in such a way that the person being attacked will not be able to launch a counter because your attack and body positioning will place your weapon in the way of his attack. This is more possible with the Longsword than with some other weapons but it is not something that you can guarantee by any means. The author does go out of his way to point out that at lease one period author suggests as much. <shrug>

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
  8. Polar Bear is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Glasgow
    Posts
    100

    Posted On:
    9/23/2009 3:08am


     Style: WMA - German Longsword

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by lklawson View Post
    I don't think that the author has suggested or implied this anywhere. My reading of it was more along the lines of specific cautions to avoid "gaming" your freeplay and advice for maintaining the "treat it as if it were 'sharps'" mentality. Which, to be honest, seems like a pretty good statement even if it's just a reminder to those of us who've already figured that out.
    The treat as sharp's mindset advice isn't particularly useful, a swordsman should never attack if there is no opening to attack into. This is a fundamental principle of swordsmanship. Therefore if you create/spot an opening, enter triangularly, with correct body alignment. Then you opponent can be as suicidal as they want but your defense will hold. The only reason any weapon gets through is because you have violated a principle or facing a superior practioner.
    It doesn't matter if you have a gaming mindset or a treat as sharps mindset. You should NEVER allow your enemy to touch you with their weapon while you hit them with yours. It is almost impossible to artificially create a mindset of danger. The best way to improve is to start adding real danger into your training.
    *Please note the following advice can lead to your death*
    What I have started doing is training unprotected in high intensity drills. Therefore I have to make deflections correctly and protect myself at all time or face serious injury.
    After this level is unprotected freeplay. I'm not at that level yet.
    To advance in swordsmanship your margin of safety has to narrow until you are close to actual duelling conditions. The personal risk has to increase, this is why much of the WMA, TMA training systems fail and fall into ineffectiveness or sporting. This is why I am calling bullshit on the article, it relies on the false assumption that you can safely train to become a swordsman. However, it is also why I now train in a private facility behind closed doors.
  9. Mordschlag is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Austin, TX
    Posts
    191

    Posted On:
    10/28/2009 5:09pm


     Style: ARMA, Antagonistics

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hey all, first time WMA poster! Interesting article with a couple good points, mainly that sparring isn't perfect and cannot fully replicate a life-or-death situation with live steel. But I do think the author is being overly critical about the value of sparring. Blunt steel sparring is vitally important for building skill with weapon and it can be dangerous, but the benefits outweigh the risk and have to be dealt with.
  10. Permalost is offline
    Permalost's Avatar

    pro nonsense self defense

    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    San Diego
    Posts
    12,365

    Posted On:
    10/29/2009 7:47pm

    supporting member
     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    When I learned to fence, here's what I was told: "Hit and don't be hit. Never forget either half of the equation." I always try to go back to that basic premise in training.
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Powered by vBulletin™© contact@vbulletin.com vBulletin Solutions, Inc. 2011 All rights reserved.