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  1. SamHarber is offline

    Taking a break

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    Oct 2002
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    Bolton, Lancashire, UK
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    2,611

    Posted On:
    2/03/2004 5:27pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Paid up. Go Omega.
    Taking responsibility for my actions since 1989
  2. Sam Browning is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/03/2004 5:33pm

    hall of famestaff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    dear Weechey,

    Since the previously quoted text started this whole series of events and entailed our fighter sign waivers protecting KCD against physical and emotional harm, your friend's actions have the stucture and appearance of requesting a challenge match dispite their claims to the contrary. Mr. Perfection also invited specific people to come down further creating the appearance of a challenge match. I think any jury looking at the above quote would say, if it sounds like a challenge, looks like a challenge, it is a challenge. As far as Randy and Titogo, they are prizefighting and of course require a licience, I will be interested to find out if you have a New York law or legal case that says private consentual unpaid matches such as in a boxing club also require the same level of legal supervision.

    Now since Mr. Perkins has withdrawn his challenge he will not be receiving any visitors, however it is also important to note that Omega had posted a letter stating his conditions, and if the sides could not agree to terms there would have been no match. Your side seems unable to differ between a match in which both sides agree upon the rules for physical contact, and a surprise assault in which there is no agreement period. I am also disturbed at your deliberate and deceptive attempts to claim that the majority of KCD posts were reasonable implying that we were at fault in this matter. You deliberately ignore the postings of Perfection and David Randel who were the ones who made the challenge and kept it going. It didn't take more then two representitives, or supposed representives of KCD to make a crucial number of inflamatory posts creating the challange. Your argument, in essence is, we were reasonable except for those important posts in which we were otherwise, is a weak argument and does you no credit.

    Your pseudo-legalistic attempts to shift blame to Bullshido does John Perkins no credit. Please do not continue such efforts. You just create more ill feelings.
  3. Sam Browning is offline

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    New England
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    Posted On:
    2/03/2004 5:56pm

    hall of famestaff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Originally posted by weechey
    I agree that this may be interpreted in a couple of different ways. The issue, though, in my mind is the RISK that you may expose yourself to. Now, suppose that the match did take place. Quite frankly, I doubt anyone would actually get hurt, since Omega appears by all accounts to be a professional, and so are the KCD folks. However, if something DID happen, then there is going to be a problem with our legal system. Like I said, don't just take my word...ask any LEO buddies you have. What would they legally be obligated to do if someone got sent to the hospital or died? The answer is that they would have to investigate and/or arrest one or both parties. Now, if this is just an "educational" session, then one could argue accidental death or something to that effect. But when there are statements such as what I've pointed out, then you have GOT to be naive if you don't think that there will be an investigation. Under those circumstances, EVERYONE loses.
    If a death happened at a boxing club in New York City in a private match, the cops would investigate, see if the rules of the establishment had been followed or and if there had been any actual intent to kill or maim. (Which Omega has not shown by the way) and if there was not they would probably say let the civil lawyers handle it. Since Omega had not been making statements about administering a brutal beating you have no case. Your frequent references to LEOS indicate you share a vocabulary with John Perkin's followers and you also make arguments on their behalf so quite frankly the most logical explaination is that you are an advocate for their position. (please don't tell me it was a coincidence you signed on to Bullshido just for this conversation).
  4. JackHanma is offline
    JackHanma's Avatar

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    2/03/2004 5:57pm


     Style: MantisShrimpFu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well said Mr.Browning. Weechey is apparently a fan of Jim Wagner who constantly enages pseudo-legal arguments in every issue of Black Belt Magazine. Cops like Wagner are not lawyers and should be ignored. The KCD have only demonstrated cowardice and weakness of character ever since Omega accepted the challenge. The more they complain the worse they look.
  5. elipson is offline
    elipson's Avatar

    Ad Hominem rocks.

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    Posted On:
    2/03/2004 6:02pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, mma

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It's about time the bullshido legal team gave weechey a talking to.

    Don't come here spewing legalese, Sam Browning speaks it fluently.
  6. Dibble is offline

    Lightweight

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    Posted On:
    2/03/2004 6:07pm

    supporting member
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Wow, SB, took a rump chunk out of that one.

    *sits on the curb to clap*
  7. grego is offline
    grego's Avatar

    Welterweight

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    Posted On:
    2/03/2004 6:10pm

    supporting member
     Style: Joe Son Do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Personally, I would like to see an exchange of ideas between him and the KCD folks.
    BWAHAHAHA! Exchange of ideas my ass. KCD already said they have the best fighting system around. Why would they be interested in listening to anyone else?

    No! They made a claim and a challenge. Push comes to shove they back out.

    They weren't worried about legalities when they made this challenge. Why worry now?

    Me thinks, me smell *****.
    FrontFaceLock from ADCC: "So thats Royce's secret. Voo doo and nut shots?"
  8. FingerorMoon? is offline

    The man they call FoM

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    Jan 2003
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    Posted On:
    2/03/2004 6:13pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Grego has fallen ass backward into the correct.

    Does anyone else think Weechey sounds like Maude Flanders yelling 'won't someone please think of the children!' ?
    The Wastrel - So attractive he HAS to be a woman.
    - Pizdoff
  9. WingChun Lawyer is offline
    WingChun Lawyer's Avatar

    Modesty forbids more.

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    Posted On:
    2/03/2004 6:14pm

    supporting member
     Style: Muay Thai, BJJ newbie.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Excellent piece of work, Mr. Browning. My congratulations.

    As far as my knowledge regarding violence in sports goes (which mostly means brazilian law, but this probably applies over there considering what Mr. Browning just said), there is no criminal or civil case as long as the rules of said activity, and those agreed upon by the participants, are followed: and, of course, as long as there is no intent to do serious injuries and/or kill.

    Gentlemen, we were (before Mr. Perkins withdrew his challenge, of course) talking about a match which would only occur after signing certain waivers, and such waivers would indeed (and this would be their major function) regulate the rules of the match itself. As long as such rules were followed, the participants simply would have no case against each other, as far as I can see - this is common sense, and it also is part of any interpretation of the law.

    Just my two cents, of course. I am not a common law lawyer, after all, but there is such a thing as common sense when talking about criminal or civil liabilities.
    That civilisation may not sink,
    Its great battle lost,
    Quiet the dog, tether the pony
    To a distant post;
    Our master Caesar is in the tent
    Where the maps are spread,
    His eyes fixed upon nothing,
    A hand under his head.


    - W.B. Yeats
  10. weechey is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    2/03/2004 6:17pm


     Style: TKD BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Regarding comments by Samuel Browning...

    Of course my comments are pseudo-legalistic...as I said, I'm not a lawyer. Still, I cannot help but wonder that this particular situation entails a certain amount of legal risk that would be harmful to both sides. Now, having trained with the KCD guys a coupla times I admit to the possibility of bias in my readings of the posts that you mention. But is it your opinion that there is NO RISK involved to either party...I'm not talking about blame here, just legal risk that may have to be faced down the line.

    One of the problems I've had with traditional training methods (as I've seen in TKD schools) is that certain aspects of our training is often ignored. I'm sure everyone here knows about the tragic death of Alex Gong...an international level kickboxing champion, who was gunned down when he tried to apprehend a criminal who side-swiped his car. Gong chased after the guy with his boxing gloves and shorts on, tried to stop the criminal and got shot in the chest. Here is a guy who is a world level competitor, but died when he didn't consider carefully the consequences of his actions. I've taken some risks early in my training (when I thought I was a badass) that today I wouldn't dream of doing.

    I am not proposing that we behave out of paranoia...simply that we be aware that what we say or do may have consequences. For the record, I had nothing to do with the posts by the KCD guys...didn't even know about you guys until the cross posts started happening. I certainly would not have written some of the KCD replies as I have seen them. As for your request for me to not continue my efforts because of "ill feelings"...well, I've stayed away from these forums for more than 10 years because I thought that the people who participate in these are too close minded to listen to other ideas. Some of the replies I've seen on this forum suggest this, but others have led me to think otherwise. I am quite impressed with some of the posts that have taken my arguments and offered countering points of view...yours included. I think that this group is more than able to deal with "ill feelings"
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