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  1. IndoChinese is offline

    AKAKTK

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    Posted On:
    11/15/2007 8:01am


     Style: Liu Seong Gung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    and fyi, this reversing windmilling, spears, crazy monkey, etc. all these this little 'fighting kits' that have been pumped out in the past decade are all truncated versions of pukulan/silat.

    it is terribly obvious when you know the source material.

    just like scabs=sansoo.
  2. Tom Kagan is offline
    Tom Kagan's Avatar

    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

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    Posted On:
    11/15/2007 8:50am

    supporting member
     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PCH
    The simple fact is: people cannot attack when they are flinching, that is the whole concept of The Shredder to induce a series of involuntary flinch response in the opponent when you are in clinch/grappling range. Then you work off that flinch. The opponent will try to get your fingers out of their eyes, turn their eyes away, etc. --thus creating oppenings.


    Human beings WILL NOT ignore fingers in their eyes while they counter. They will get the fingers out of their eyes by what ever mean necessary THEN fight back.

    That's just the way it is. 5, 10, 30, 40 years of martial arts training cannot "undo" millions of years of evolution (i.e. our flinch response).

    While I don't necessarily disagree, using pseudo-science to support an argument doesn't help you. I will also go on to say that most people flinch because it is a LEARNED RESPONSE, not an instinctual one. Thus, it can be unlearned - or even ignored when it isn't a big deal (as in my 2nd example of my first post of this thread).


    Bjorn,

    Your attempts to paint every post in this thread in the same color of some sort of a bad manners witch hunt by people who have already made of their minds is EXACTLY what I mean by "bitch patrol". You would be better served by addressing the substance of the valid arguments and answer the questions raised to the best of your abilities instead.

    A reasonable person would assume the purpose of you putting up those videos was for discussion, not "ooh lookie at me aint this great?" Your reaction is unwarranted.
    Last edited by Tom Kagan; 11/15/2007 8:55am at .
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
  3. Kintanon is offline
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    Yes, I am smarter than you are.

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    Posted On:
    11/15/2007 9:11am

    supporting memberstaff
     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PCH
    Also, "armbaring" someone with a standing armbar when they shred is farfetched at best...


    You make applying standing joint locks sound so easy! And it is... IF your opponent isn't fighting back.


    If standing armbars are so easy to pull off, why do you hardly ever see them at grappling tournaments...? I've competed in many kinds of grappling tournaments and haven't seen it happen --ever. (I've have seen a couple clips of Waki Gatame from Judo tournaments on Youtube, though).
    .
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vP9m36CdhhI <--- My personal favorite
    http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...&search=Search <--- hundreds of other examples

    I know, the flying armbar is a bit silly. And might be risky on concrete, but it's far from the worst thing that will happen to you if you stick your arm out and put your hand on someones face and leave it there. I imagine just Judoka would be GIDDY with joy over the gift you've give them. Even Aikodka are probably going to hurt you good if you gift them with your arm.

    As a side note: if your opponent is keeping their hands up, protecting their face, how do you go about getting your hand through their guard?
  4. soundless is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/15/2007 11:13am


     Style: Sambo, MT, BJJ, CH

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    bjorn i was trying to have a decent conversation with you, i know with all the posts you may have missed my follow up post but please I'd like you to respond to it if you could, sorry it's fairly long.

    As for you PCH, I have in fact been jammed in the eye a number of times, I don't know how it's possible to avoid being jammed in the eye at least a few times in your life, and hell i've even jammed my uncles eye with my finger by accident when i was younger.

    second, you will have precious little time to get your hand in my face at least with me personally, if i cant keep distance to kicking range i move straight into a muay thai clinch and start throwing knees galore.

    "ohhhh but what if its on Da Str33tZ?! and he like ambushes you or somethings" as far as im concerned you guys are supposed to be using this system to defend yourself and not attack people with it so i guess i don't have to worry about people ambushing me with it, however if some jackass attacked me and by some weird chance tried to continuously put his hand in my face you can sure as hell bet i'd arm bar him because it IS in fact easy.

    which brings me to my last point, arms bars while standing ARE in fact quite easy when someone puts their hand in the vacinity of your face, why don't we see them more often? BECAUSE MMA PEOPLE PURPOSELY AVOID PUTTING THEIR HANDS IN A VULNERABLE SPOT.

    I don't know you, and i doubt you read the whole thread before posting because you haven't added anything to the thread in terms of information, befored you came i was speaking with bjorn to get more information. Now either adress my follow up concern post with new information!
  5. rw4th is offline
    rw4th's Avatar

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    11/15/2007 12:16pm


     Style: BJJ,MT,RBSD (on hiatus)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I’ve posted about Senshido before, look for my posts for what I consider to be an unbiased review. As a little background before I give you my point of view: I trained at the Senshido HQ here in Montreal for several months with Dimitri himself back when he was still running things and teaching there.

    As stated, Bjorn has never had any formal training in Senshido and it shows in his understanding of the concept behind the shredder. What he’s demonstrating is just a drill (one which I have done before) and the Shredder is not just about putting your hand in person’s face.

    Theoretically I think the idea is good: clinch, attack the head relentlessly to induce a flinch response and cause the person to “go fetal” while moving to take the back, and finish the fight.

    In practice, while the Shredder concept can be a useful tool to have in ones tool bag, I believe Senshido itself does have a major flaw in that it does specifically train you on HOW to fight from the clinch much less how to get there without getting knocked the **** out or thrown to the ground by a competent wrestler or Judoka. Combined with good clinch fighting skills the Shredder can be an effective tool, but without them you will have your ass handed to you if you fight against someone who knows what to do at that range.

    Dimitri adopted the Shredder as his signature gimmick to sell DVDs and make a living, and I can understand and even respect that since it takes some kind of hook to survive as a business in that market space, but I do think his adoption of “teh d3adly” marketing rhetoric hurts his credibility in the long run.

    My personal overall opinion of Senshido however is positive. There is a lot of good material there for someone who is interested in adding self-defense specific skills to their skill set. Senshido emphasizes aliveness in all aspect of training and drilling and Dimitri has produced some very good material when it comes to things like pre-contact psychology and behavioral delivery.
    Last edited by rw4th; 11/15/2007 12:18pm at .
  6. rw4th is offline
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    Posted On:
    11/15/2007 12:32pm


     Style: BJJ,MT,RBSD (on hiatus)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by PCH
    From what I understand, Dimitri's school offers grappling & kickboxing classes; they are the "core" around which other skills are built.

    "The Shredder" is simply an add-on to the grappling range. It is NOT a "system" of it's own any more than the De La Riva Guard is a style of grappling onto itself.
    Exactly

    When I was there the core was kickboxing and in order to progress through the various Senshido phases you also needed to log a significant number of hours in the kickboxing classes.

    The major problem, which is exemplified by people like Bjorn, is that the training methodology which made the Montreal school successful is NOT successfully exported with the Senshido program. Dimitri travels, does his best to impart his knowledge and his philosophy, but can’t change the fact that most people who gravitate to RBSD seem to be looking for a shortcut and just don’t want to put in the time and effort to learn to basics.
    Last edited by rw4th; 11/15/2007 1:25pm at .
  7. Bjorn is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/15/2007 12:43pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Senshido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by soundless
    to be honest i just tend to come off as a prick online 4/5 times, but it has more to do with my sense of humor not be translated well into text.
    Regardless, I'd like to try and just point out the issues i've seen with the system, and hopefully it will assist in your training and perhaps help you understand what some of us see.

    1.If you place your hand in the persons face, or try to, you open yourself to several fight ending techniques, the arm bar is the most obvious example and whether you knew it or not it can be done standing about 12 different ways, and each of them is aggravatingly simple to do. Most mma programs have banned standing joint locks for this reason.

    2.you open up one of the rare opportunities a person can have to use... dare i say it?... AIKIDO wrist locks... oh man a mod is gonna come zap me for that lol. And several fun shoulder locks that end up with you on the ground. Not somewhere you wanna be in a fight

    3.When i say clich i mean the muay thai clinch, the wrestler clinch is alright for some things, but the muaythai clinch is downright brutal, please refer to anderson silva vs rich franklin 1 and 2. The problem is most fighters train with this as their main clinch and its such a simple thing that even a drunk may accidentally "discover" it. and sadly this clinch leads to knees... lots and lots and lots of knees. painful knees... ok i think i made my point about the knees. but the problem comes in that in a muaythai clinch you cannot manuveur your hands into your opponents face and if you can you most likely will have opened yourself up to more knees or a painful takedown... which of course you dont want happening on gravel or concrete or anything like that.

    my last immediate concern is with the prey vs predator psychology you mentioned. In most instances you should not be the one to throw the first punch... legally anyways, often a fight is not fatal but ends with some injuries, if you attack someones face in this instance you may in fact piss them off more and the fight may go further then it would have originally. In demitris videos he criticized moving away from knife strikes and encouraged the person to rush in, i will tell you right now that mind set is extremely dangerous. We do knife sparring and you dont make big sweeping slashes, there is almost no way to move in, and the few times people are able to make it in without getting stabbed in ends up in an incredibly dangerous clinch where the knife is often right near the kidneys. Why did i mention the knife fighting? well simply put i think it shows a mental concept, demitri is attempting to teach people to move in in in for an attack when it should be you attack and then run the **** away [i sure as hell would at the first chance].

    So i read one of your earlier posts you said you were visiting canada? may i ask which part? if its in the east id encourage you to visit, id be happy to demonstrate my points and share information with you and vice versa.
    Sorry for missing your post. People on this forum seem to be like white on rice in regards to senshido...:)

    Anyway;

    1. You do not just place your hand in someones face, you hold on with a overhook, underhook, neck controll, hair or by his hear, tearing HARD at his face. For the drills we obviously just place our hands there since trainig partners is quite hard to come by.. I would think that the last thing someone would think about while beeing shredded was to do a standing armbar.

    By the way, if I might add, the reason we look like we do while face grappling is because we are both going after two goals; 1. to keep your hand in your opponets face at all times, 2. to keep your opponent from doing the same to you.

    We were not trying to look good or follow a pattern, we were just working with the drill. When you try to hold your hand in your opponets face while at the same time try to not let him do the same you will also look like that. As for me training wrong, how could I be? We were testing a drill where the purpose of the drill was to develop better footwork, anchor and tactile sensitivity. (This explanation was more for HAPKO3).

    2. Same thing here, the only thing you will do while beeing shredded is trying to disengage..not applying wrist locks or shoulder locks. When I go to Canada I hope that we can meet. I will for sure let you try both armbars, wristlocks, shoulder locks or thai knees while I am shredding you. If you suceed with any of that I will ask you to teach me those locks and give you some serious cred. (If you live in Canada, why not check out the senshido head quarter? I am sure they would be more then willing to explain their concepts to you if you are interessted?).

    3. Regarding the thai clinch, I will try this. I have a friend that have trained muai thai in Thailand and I am sure he knows this clinch. Will film it, of course. He just had surgery in his abdominom so it will be a while before we can train but I promise I will test it out.

    Richard Dimitri covers knife issues in debth in his DVDs; "On the cutting edge", and; "On the cutting edge 2". Your asumtions about his teachings regarding knife defence etc is wrong. I am guessing that you came to that conclution from only watching the youtube clips? You should try to find those two DVDs as I am 100% sure that you will realise that your asumtions are wrong.

    Regarding the legal aspect. Shredding is just a small piece of the puzzle. It is not like I am training to shredd anyone that attacks me etc... Like I mentioned in my post on page.18; I have only been in a "fight" once in my 27 years on this earth. I am a very calm guy. I have a 3 year old son and a wonderful fiancee, I do not go bar-hopping each weekend or look for fights. I would only shredd someone if it was my very last option.. I have no romantic ideas about voilence or self defence.

    I have been RNC from behind while out on the town by one of my friends (the muai thai guy)..He put it on and started back peddaling real fast to get me off balance, I reach behind my back and grabbed his nuts, held on and squeezed a little harder since he did not let go right away...he let go then... I did not go apeshit and went for his eyes and throught after he let go... I knew it most likely was a friend of mine since they know I train in self defence and find it funny to "test" me when I am off guard..

    Another time I suddenly got put in a classical head lock. I did not tilt for the same reason, it just had to be a friend of mine since I never felt much pressure..

    Yet another time I got attacked by a girl in the backseat of a car after beeing a bit rude to her (what can I say..I was young and drunk..:)...she suddenly reached over (we were three people in the back seat, her on the far left, me on the far right) and tried to punch me several times...somehow I got a hold of her hand and insinctively put her in a wristlock while controlling her elbow (how is beyond me...I have never practiced this and it happened instantly). I just held it till she had calmed down.

    My point is that shredding is just a tool among all the other tools in senshido and it is for self defence. There is no need to "defend" against drunks...all it takes is some social skills and the ability to put your ego away for a short while...

    Finally, as I mentioned, when I come to Canada it would be cool to meet up to exchange ideas, do some sparring and test things out. I do not know where it is yet (as I mentioned, I have a 3 year old son so this type of trip requires planning, saving and time) but I will send you a PM when it is all settled.
    Last edited by Bjorn; 11/15/2007 12:52pm at .
  8. soundless is offline

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    Posted On:
    11/15/2007 1:15pm


     Style: Sambo, MT, BJJ, CH

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Im actually in the north east of america, a couple hours away from the canadian border, but if you're in eastern canada you should take a trip down so you can check the states out.
    rack up some more posts on here so we can PM when your visiting canada.

    rw4th thanks for your post, I think you have a very good grasp of what i'm talking about and you answered most of my thought process in one shot.

    This thread has gone in circles, more or less everything has been adressed multiple times, so for the time being this thread should be left to fade away once more.
  9. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

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    Posted On:
    11/15/2007 3:27pm

    supporting member
     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Bjorn
    I have been RNC from behind while out on the town by one of my friends (the muai thai guy)..He put it on and started back peddaling real fast to get me off balance, I reach behind my back and grabbed his nuts, held on and squeezed a little harder since he did not let go right away...he let go then... I did not go apeshit and went for his eyes and throught after he let go... I knew it most likely was a friend of mine since they know I train in self defence and find it funny to "test" me when I am off guard..

    Then he doesn't know RNC. If you did this to someone who knew how to RNC, you would out cold AND he'll now be pissed off at you. (A rather infamous incident between Gene Lebell and Steven Seagall springs to mind.) Your above comment goes directly to the point I made in my previous post. If you, your partner, or your instructor doesn't have a working knowledge of the fundamentals of the scenario a practitioner is training, it is difficult to know whether such a tactic is appropriate or very low percentage act of desperation.

    Bjorn, if/when you ever make it over (or I there) it would be great fun to meet up and exchange ideas in an ego-free environment. But you have to understand: you don't have a lock on the ideas and concepts found within the "The Shredder™" DVDs packaging. Many people are not only familiar with ripping, but also practice it from time to time within the context of their own training of what they consider important.

    It might be enlightening for you to spend some time learning what is "Combat Sambo" - the style soundless lists as his own. While I don't know him, who he studies with (specifically), or what level he's at, I think you'll be quite surprised at what Combat Sambo encompasses without adding a trademark symbol when he rips and gets ripped in training or for the knifework.
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
  10. Bjorn is offline

    Featherweight

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    Posted On:
    11/15/2007 4:49pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Senshido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kagan
    Then he doesn't know RNC. If you did this to someone who knew how to RNC, you would out cold AND he'll now be pissed off at you. (A rather infamous incident between Gene Lebell and Steven Seagall springs to mind.) Your above comment goes directly to the point I made in my previous post. If you, your partner, or your instructor doesn't have a working knowledge of the fundamentals of the scenario a practitioner is training, it is difficult to know whether such a tactic is appropriate or very low percentage act of desperation.

    Bjorn, if/when you ever make it over (or I there) it would be great fun to meet up and exchange ideas in an ego-free environment. But you have to understand: you don't have a lock on the ideas and concepts found within the "The Shredder™" DVDs packaging. Many people are not only familiar with ripping, but also practice it from time to time within the context of their own training of what they consider important.

    It might be enlightening for you to spend some time learning what is "Combat Sambo" - the style soundless lists as his own. While I don't know him, who he studies with (specifically), or what level he's at, I think you'll be quite surprised at what Combat Sambo encompasses without adding a trademark symbol when he rips and gets ripped in training or for the knifework.
    We are friends... Friends do not choke each other out when out on town (at least mine does not). Trust me, my friend knows how to RNC...

    Off topic but still; I squeezed in some pad work and submission wrestling this evening, very short workout since we came late to the gym. It became even more apparent that I need to start doing some serious conditioning... I was gassed after only a few minutes of pad work and a few minutes of grappling.. Managed to tap out my partner with a RNC tho..;) He got me with a foot-lock. Have ordered the books of Ross Enamait and will do some serious conditioning the next couple of months.

    I have heard about ripping (got some DVDs on it by Tony Ceccine)...Looks very painful!

    Sure man! Would be cool to meet up and do some work! You plan on coming over to Norway?
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