11/14/2007 6:06pm, #181HAPKO3, you trying to get me or something? I have said this many times now; We are both beginners at this. It was our very first time testing those drills. We will improve as we train.
Now, if there is any part of my answer that you have a hard time understanding, HAPKO3, let me know in a PM and I will do my very best to explain it to you. Ok?You say what about my rice?
11/14/2007 6:19pm, #182
I also can't help but wonder if all of this has been addressed, ad nuaseum, in this thread already. No offense, Bjorn, but you're not saying anything new. It's all been addressed before.
11/14/2007 7:33pm, #183
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- Jul 2007
to be honest i just tend to come off as a prick online 4/5 times, but it has more to do with my sense of humor not be translated well into text.
Regardless, I'd like to try and just point out the issues i've seen with the system, and hopefully it will assist in your training and perhaps help you understand what some of us see.
1.If you place your hand in the persons face, or try to, you open yourself to several fight ending techniques, the arm bar is the most obvious example and whether you knew it or not it can be done standing about 12 different ways, and each of them is aggravatingly simple to do. Most mma programs have banned standing joint locks for this reason.
2.you open up one of the rare opportunities a person can have to use... dare i say it?... AIKIDO wrist locks... oh man a mod is gonna come zap me for that lol. And several fun shoulder locks that end up with you on the ground. Not somewhere you wanna be in a fight
3.When i say clich i mean the muay thai clinch, the wrestler clinch is alright for some things, but the muaythai clinch is downright brutal, please refer to anderson silva vs rich franklin 1 and 2. The problem is most fighters train with this as their main clinch and its such a simple thing that even a drunk may accidentally "discover" it. and sadly this clinch leads to knees... lots and lots and lots of knees. painful knees... ok i think i made my point about the knees. but the problem comes in that in a muaythai clinch you cannot manuveur your hands into your opponents face and if you can you most likely will have opened yourself up to more knees or a painful takedown... which of course you dont want happening on gravel or concrete or anything like that.
my last immediate concern is with the prey vs predator psychology you mentioned. In most instances you should not be the one to throw the first punch... legally anyways, often a fight is not fatal but ends with some injuries, if you attack someones face in this instance you may in fact piss them off more and the fight may go further then it would have originally. In demitris videos he criticized moving away from knife strikes and encouraged the person to rush in, i will tell you right now that mind set is extremely dangerous. We do knife sparring and you dont make big sweeping slashes, there is almost no way to move in, and the few times people are able to make it in without getting stabbed in ends up in an incredibly dangerous clinch where the knife is often right near the kidneys. Why did i mention the knife fighting? well simply put i think it shows a mental concept, demitri is attempting to teach people to move in in in for an attack when it should be you attack and then run the **** away [i sure as hell would at the first chance].
So i read one of your earlier posts you said you were visiting canada? may i ask which part? if its in the east id encourage you to visit, id be happy to demonstrate my points and share information with you and vice versa.
11/14/2007 7:39pm, #184
I was actually at the seminar with Sean Madigan and Richard Dimitri mentioned previously in this thread. I am friends with Sean and was invited even though I was still hobbling about after my accident, so I could not participate. However, it did allow me to observe what was going on from an overall perspective rather than as a participant. I can recall two things which happened during the seminar which might shed a little light here:
- One of Richard's students (not direct, but a "mail order" student) actually bit the thumb and drew blood against one of Sean's students during a drill where no one was supposed to be doing this. "Mr. Jaws" did this from a disadvantaged position. All he managed to do was to piss off Sean's student who then pounded "Mr. Jaws" a few times until they were quickly separated.
- Another of Richard's students attempted "The Shredder™" on another of Sean's students in an effort to open the closed guard. He quickly got swept and mounted.
The problem with tactics like "The Shredder™" is many people use these types of tactics as a crutch. To use an analogy, it's as if they don't understand the "main course" is the fundamentals and not the "dessert" of what is really more commonly known as good old fashioned ripping. There isn't anything particularly new, except in the marketing of a trademarked product.
Ripping is not a "defensive" tactic, it is OFFENSE. To use them where it is not appropriate is a sign of not understanding what ripping is originally intended for. Alternatively, using them when not appropriate can also be considered a sign of desperation. And, if either practitioner does not have a functional understanding of the particular fundamentals of whatever scenario is being worked on, it is very difficult to learn when ripping is or is not appropriate.
Another point I believe is not touched upon in the marketing of "The Shredder™" is that people get used to being ripped. Many things you can do which will hurt a newbie begin to lose effectiveness as a person gets used to it. While a finger in an eye will tend to hurt, it won't stop them and, if they get any good, they won't leak such an opportunity in the first place.
Ripping may amplify an attack. However, if the person can't or shouldn't go for the face in the first place at that moment, it's less than useful, and attempting it can backfire just as it did in the two examples I gave above. But if a practitioner can reach their opponent's face at will and with impunity, that's because the fundamentals are stronger. Only if the main course of a "balanced meal consisting of the fundamentals" are adequate does it make sense to start considering whether "the dessert of ripping" needs butter-creme or chocolate icing.
Does any of this mean you shouldn't ever rip? No. My statements above should also not be construed as a review of "The Shredder™" program overall.
This brings me to another point:
For the most part in the U.S. (and perhaps in Canada and other countries), people who gravitate towards these RBSD styles of martial arts tend to be a little off kilter. They want to believe they can be come an "uber-badass" if they can find the right secret training program and protect themselves, their property, and jump to the call of others. (I find this amusing when it's a person who lives in nice & safe area, or is obscenely overweight but doesn't recognize heart disease will get them long before the boogeyman in the shadows.)
I mention this because, while Richard seems to be genuine individual and does not seem to cultivate such a clientele to any great degree, from my point of view he does not actively discourage this behavior either. Because of this, it appears to me there is a "cult of personality" surrounding him which tends to act like his own personal "bitch patrol" whenever their "pope" is questioned regardless of a question's validity and thus, affording him the appearance of being "above it all". (Whether this true or not is another story, but this is how it can appear.)
: Phrost, no I do not know everyone. Shut up. (I'll accept it is getting rather funny whom I've met and know - especially since I suck.)
Last edited by Tom Kagan; 11/14/2007 7:42pm at .Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.
"Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ
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My Bullshido fan club threads:
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Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
ATTN TOM KAGAN
World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
11/14/2007 8:59pm, #185
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- Mar 2003
- angola, ny
again with the crappy silatz.
11/15/2007 2:53am, #186
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- Sep 2007
- Los Angeles
I agree with what Tom Kagan wrote in regards to having a base in grappling & striking; OBVIOUSLY it's very important --as I'm sure Richard Dimitri himself would tell you.
From what I understand, Dimitri's school offers grappling & kickboxing classes; they are the "core" around which other skills are built.
"The Shredder" is simply an add-on to the grappling range. It is NOT a "system" of it's own any more than the De La Riva Guard is a style of grappling onto itself.
* * *
I gather you have never been jammed in the eye by someone's finger. Well, it sucks.
If one keeps their hands moving sticking their fingers into their opponent's eyes, as they seek dominant standing position (i.e. trying to get to the opponent's back). I don't see much of a chance of a standing armbar.
The simple fact is: people cannot attack when they are flinching, that is the whole concept of The Shredder to induce a series of involuntary flinch response in the opponent when you are in clinch/grappling range. Then you work off that flinch. The opponent will try to get your fingers out of their eyes, turn their eyes away, etc. --thus creating oppenings.
Human beings WILL NOT ignore fingers in their eyes while they counter. They will get the fingers out of their eyes by what ever mean necessary THEN fight back.
That's just the way it is. 5, 10, 30, 40 years of martial arts training cannot "undo" millions of years of evolution (i.e. our flinch response).
Also, "armbaring" someone with a standing armbar when they shred is farfetched at best...
You make applying standing joint locks sound so easy! And it is... IF your opponent isn't fighting back.
If standing armbars are so easy to pull off, why do you hardly ever see them at grappling tournaments...? I've competed in many kinds of grappling tournaments and haven't seen it happen --ever. (I've have seen a couple clips of Waki Gatame from Judo tournaments on Youtube, though).
Not what I would consider "high percentage".
And "Most mma programs have banned standing joint locks for this reason". Where have you heard this...??? There is no need to ban standing joint locks, because they are not especially dangerous (compared, for example, to kicking a downed opponent) and they are pretty low percentage techniques.
Last edited by PCH; 11/15/2007 3:48am at .
11/15/2007 3:24am, #187
- Join Date
- Oct 2007
Wow! Lots of replys. Well, it seems most of you guys have made your mind up. That is fine. Like I said, I am not here to "convert" anyone.
I will continue my experimenting, spice it with some MMA-training and start some anaerobic conditioning (ordered the two books from rossfitness.com yesterday and look forward to reading them and applying his concepts!).
Also, I have a friend that knows a good BJJ-guy that I will try to train with to test the shredding concept further.
As a side note I would like to say that it seems to me that many people here are acting up and pretending to be more of a badass then they are in real life. I wonder why? Would be interesting to see some training videos from everyone. I understand that videotaping one self and posting it on youtube is not for everyone but if you pretend to be a badass, show me some of your training..
11/15/2007 7:05am, #188
- Join Date
- Mar 2003
- angola, ny
you just want to see my training so you have something productive to do.
and fyi, i paid absolutely no attention to anything in this thread except the cat scratch fever pictures. which are nothing more than foul tactics of the lowest order.
cup of bleach in the face works real nice too.
11/15/2007 7:31am, #189
Originally Posted by IndoChinese
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- Oct 2007
You find foul tactics to be of the lowest order? Absolutely facinating. So I am better off defending my self with a fantastic jumping back kick...since faul tactics are of the lowest order and all...?
Nice nick and cool dragon IndoChinese. What is your real name? How old are you? Untill you present your "real" self to me and express why you feel the need to make rude insinuations about me I have no interest in discussing with you.
11/15/2007 7:55am, #190
- Join Date
- Mar 2003
- angola, ny
i am fourty years old.
i have 36 yrs. experience in Liu Seong Kuntao Silat.
i can, but usually wont, do jumping spinning back kicks. actually, i have won a few sparring matches that way, now that i think about it.
and i will reiterate...those face clawing techniques are gutter techniques. that type of training is merely playing off on people's tendancies towards sadism.
did he show you the biting too? that goes hand in hand with those movements.
as far as rudeness goes, i respond like an echo and am not at all passive aggressive.
i run on DC.
i have nothing against you, dont know who you are, and could care less. i am making a critique (somewhat) of those techniques, and imo, they fail. maybe some of what he does would work, but what i have seen so far is less than impressive.
he might be a great guy, a big hit at parties, and good family man.
he is however, not an expert martial artist.