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  1. ronaldk is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/18/2009 1:35am


     Style: BJJ / freestyle wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by fadfad View Post
    heh, hard to keep moving once the grappling is going. Guess theres nothing but to keep learning maybe one day naturally beating the strength :S
    whitebelt 2 cent rant ahead...

    NO. 'keep moving' may sound overly simplistic to you, but it is key in my opinion. i got home a few hours from a Mario Yamasaki seminar, led by himself and a 3rd dan BB of his, Francisco Neto.

    Francisco, while teaching the more advanced players kept repeating the phrase "you need to keep moving". he says it is THE MOST IMPORTANT part of the jujitsu game these days, specially in competition.

    what's funny is my instructor has been repeating this mantra over and over to us for the past few months. results? well, one of my fellow whitebelts beat a purple belt who's also fought pro MMA in a grappling tournament last month on points, and went on to place 1st (not many grapplers in the country, so the skill classes were dumped, and only divided into weightclasses). how did he do this? he defended the purple's subs by NEVER STOPPING FOR A SECOND. he escaped his controls by going at it 100% on-stop. he eventually passed guard, and landed some dominant positions. tied on points, and went to sudden death, winning by takedown (2 points awarded).

    we are all aware the purple belt had superior skill (we all know him, he's been at this for a while). he probably was stronger too (i've fought him, and the guy is pretty strong, out whitebelt not so much). but the relentless determination of the other guy to not get caught, and never be static worked wonders.

    in my experience, the guard is an 'advantageous' position, technique-wise, but don't forget, your back is pinned to the ground, gravity is working against you. if your opponent if both heavier and stronger, again, unless you have a good guard, staying there is not a good idea. launching attacks that you haven't set up to be hard to escape or counter may just get you your guard passed. try to work sweeps, escapes or squirm out and try fighting for top position yourself. he is less experienced, so you should be able to pass his guard easier.

    Quote Originally Posted by Condemned View Post
    That's very interesting. I say that because I can't remember how often I've heard the weight training argument in other style forums, both for and against. I've never thought about it for serious rolling as I am a newbie to grappling ways. It was always taken for granted as pro wrestlers and wrestlers in general are usually beasts! (in size and strength) So, I guess my question is for all of you serious rollers, does weight training help or interfere with skill development? Is rolling with a variety of opponents the best way to develop, or are weights also needed?

    Also, is weight training viable for older rollers, or is it a strictly younger guy thing? I mean in terms of really adding strength?
    there is no replacement for being in shape. sure, you might be able to do everything you want, or you think you can, when it comes to rolling. but think about it, can you roll FULL SPEED, 100% for the duration of a match, and have enough in the tank to fight again at this same level in a short period of time?

    lifting weights means you are used to using strength. this doesn't mean you'll muscle through rolling, but added strength to your technique will definitely make you a more effective grappler. don't bodybuild, go for strength. read up in the physical fitness forum here. ask your coach. he should guide you in the right direction.

    weight training doesn't mean benchpressing and bicep curling, so in case you think it does, get that out of your head. while these exercises have their specific applications, you probably should be working on exercises that will help develop strength where you need it. deadlifts, cleans, presses, squats, snatches, turkish getups and such are the kind of things you should be looking at. don't forget bodyweight exercises such as pullups, dips, boxjumps, pushups, burpees, situps, back extensions, etc. check out the nice folks at crossfit.com for some cool info and perhaps picking up their program.
    Last edited by ronaldk; 9/18/2009 1:40am at .
  2. Condemned is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/18/2009 4:36am

    Bullshido Newbie
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Much obliged ronaldK!
  3. permahudef is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/18/2009 6:57am


     Style: BJJ/MuayThai/Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hedge,
    On your last video, with the wrestlers holddown (we call diapercheck). When you flatten out, it intuitively seems like a time for him to take mount, but his arm is in the way. What other things do you have to watch out for if you flatten out?

    OP, my advice is don't ever let a bigger guy put his weight on you. Get on top. If that doesn't work, use open guard as much as you can, keep your feet/shins/knees pushing him away while in the guard. When he starts to pass, push his head away to the side that he is passing. This probably won't stop him, but it should give him some trouble and give you a little bit of space to go to your knees or pull guard.
    Last edited by permahudef; 9/18/2009 7:03am at .
  4. atom is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/18/2009 7:13am


     Style: bum rush karate

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    what ronaldk said, except weight lifting does mean bench pressing. also, getting bigger IS getting stronger.

    I'd add: the key to using weightlifting to become more athletic is to use compound exercises that work across multiple joints (like bench press, squat, pull ups) as opposed to isolating individual muscles (like bicep curls, leg extensions, tricep extensions).

    and eating is key to making actual gains when training.
  5. Southpaw is online now
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    Posted On:
    9/18/2009 7:56am

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    **** weight lifting. Get better at bjj.

    Don't play guard against a big strong guy if you don't have a really good guard. Being on the bottom sucks. Fight like hell to not end up on the bottom.

    From side control, everyone knows you need to get an underhook to get out of side control. Set your frame and get the fucking underhook. There are purple belts that I outweigh by 70 pounds who I can't keep in side control very long b/c they get a good frame, get an underhook and them bam...we're in guard (or at least 1/2).

    But really...the answer is to not let him get in side control. How's that for simple?
  6. Kintanon is offline
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    Yes, I am smarter than you are.

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    Posted On:
    9/18/2009 8:02am

    supporting memberstaff
     Style: TKD, BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Southpaw, you say that, but every blue belt I've run into, and more so every purple belt, is fairly strong and fit in addition to being skilled. Both is better than either or.
  7. Southpaw is online now
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    Posted On:
    9/18/2009 8:54am

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, Wing Chun

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Totally agree that both is better than one. And I think by nature by the time a person gets to be a purple belt or a long-time blue belt you have developed some good strength from all the training you have done. That being said, I'm a pretty strong guy but much weaker purple belts can prevent me from holding them in side control.

    I guess my point was to not try to overcome poor technique with more muscles. In my experience technique usually beats muscle.

    Your point is a valid one though.
  8. ronaldk is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/18/2009 9:36am


     Style: BJJ / freestyle wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by atom View Post
    what ronaldk said, except weight lifting does mean bench pressing. also, getting bigger IS getting stronger.
    well, i was trying to get the point that exercises done in gym for physical aesthetics aren't necessarily the ones you use for building strength. and of course, bigger is stronger, but strength training and bodybuilding do tend to have dramatically different visual effects.
  9. Anima. is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/18/2009 1:45pm


     Style: Greco Roman

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I would say that, you need more muscle your self or not breaking his posture like hedge said, shall we bring up the Experienced grappler v.s pure weightlifter vids? :)
    lol
  10. Suprore is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/18/2009 2:19pm


     Style: Bjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    As someone to whom EVERY opponent is 'massive strength' (the one time i competed it was at 122 without cutting) i'd say a big part of your problem is that you are letting him settle position on you. At somewhat experienced whitebelt level of skill i cannot and do not know anyone at a similar level who can magic out of a strong guy holding them down. I'm sure there are ways, and it looks like hedgehogyey's video shows one, but i'm pretty sure i couldnt turn away like that without doing something stupid and getting tapped tfo.

    That said, a not very good grappler should not be able to lay on you and pin you down.

    When he starts to pass your guard are you immediately moving away from him, keeping a knee and elbow in to frame, shrimping out, working to break his posture back down, trying to catch last minute scissor sweeps or omoplata or something, and generally throwing every bit of nooby whitebelt technique you know to prevent him from establishing side control?

    Or are you thinking 'oh, he's passing me, i'd better work on my side control escapes?' Your whitebelt level side control escapes are not going to get you out from under a giant. But your whitebelt level open guard and scramble to prevent him establishing side control should be just fine. If not, technique more, muscle less. The ONLY guys i could tap who i trained with were the guys with a 40+ pound weight advantage but six months or less training. I only escaped from the lighter bluebelts when they were going easy on me.
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