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  1. Raging Monkey is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/15/2009 12:31pm


     Style: BJJ, JJJ and JKD

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2 View Post
    Idiotic McDojo-y internet marketing should still have the spotlight of Bullshido.net blazed upon it, and be shamed.

    Producing good competitors and fighters does not entitle a school to put out "3 year BJJ black belt" emails/fliers/planes with signs flying behind them above beaches.
    Really? Are you really going to head down this road?
  2. 1point2 is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/15/2009 12:36pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: 剛 and 柔

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Raging Monkey View Post
    Really? Are you really going to head down this road?
    What road am I heading down?

    Because I think I'm on the Gracie-University-criticizing, Tiger-Schulmann-sucks-even-if-it-creates-MMA-fighters, bad-marketing-is-bad-marketing road. And yes, I mean to be on it.

    Edit: I also see a distinction between what Whiteshark calls McDojo (commercial schools run for profit but that are also run ethically and truthfully, even in their sometimes-silly marketing) and things like ridiculous claims, hidden fees, and price gouging.
    What a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable. -Xenophon's Socrates
  3. MaxThunderstone is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/15/2009 11:06pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thing is, Irvin has both earned his blackbelt in three years and produced black belts in similar time frames. This means he can put out the flier. The worst you can say about Irvin is that he's into marketing and that he's expensive. What else is there to discuss?
  4. chingythingy is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/16/2009 7:53am


     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Lloyd's claim to fame besides being a bad-ass BJJ blackbelt (which he is legitimately) is his expertise in e-mail mass marketing. He's set up a few of his students in programs / websites to sell BJJ training videos and make money. That's what you're running into in part of the big fat claims in his advertising.

    His path to training some of his kids up as 3 years to a black belt involves them obtaining sponsors, training 7 days a week, and through sponsorship competing in many many more tournaments than anyone else's school. They fly everywhere to compete in local tournaments, do all 3 majors in a year, etc. His mass marketing helps them get sponsors. He trained up Fowler that way, Ryan Hall (who left Lloyd and went out on his own), and JT Torres. It's a pattern for getting really good really quick, but it is something not very many can hang with.

    As far as the quality of instruction in his schools, all of them are top notch. He has competition teams and classes that help his hotshots win - and keeps them cutting edge. Those are great things to be exposed to. He teaches a Game Plan for matches, competition grip fighting and a whole lot other stuff that will actually help you win. All this rubs off on the less talented masses as well.

    Ignore his marketing. As far as his BJJ instruction, I'd say once you can tap him criticize. And good luck with that.
  5. 1point2 is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/16/2009 8:10am

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     Style: 剛 and 柔

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by chingythingy View Post
    Lloyd's claim to fame besides being a bad-ass BJJ blackbelt (which he is legitimately) is his expertise in e-mail mass marketing. He's set up a few of his students in programs / websites to sell BJJ training videos and make money. That's what you're running into in part of the big fat claims in his advertising.

    His path to training some of his kids up as 3 years to a black belt involves them obtaining sponsors, training 7 days a week, and through sponsorship competing in many many more tournaments than anyone else's school. They fly everywhere to compete in local tournaments, do all 3 majors in a year, etc. His mass marketing helps them get sponsors. He trained up Fowler that way, Ryan Hall (who left Lloyd and went out on his own), and JT Torres. It's a pattern for getting really good really quick, but it is something not very many can hang with.

    As far as the quality of instruction in his schools, all of them are top notch. He has competition teams and classes that help his hotshots win - and keeps them cutting edge. Those are great things to be exposed to. He teaches a Game Plan for matches, competition grip fighting and a whole lot other stuff that will actually help you win. All this rubs off on the less talented masses as well.

    Ignore his marketing. As far as his BJJ instruction, I'd say once you can tap him criticize. And good luck with that.
    Thanks for the explanation (Max too). This puts it in perspective for me.
    What a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable. -Xenophon's Socrates
  6. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/16/2009 11:25am

    supporting memberstaff
     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've got a couple of Lloyd's boys on my team. His skill speaks for itself.
  7. Raging Monkey is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/16/2009 12:19pm


     Style: BJJ, JJJ and JKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2 View Post
    Thanks for the explanation (Max too). This puts it in perspective for me.
    Care to recant the earlier smack talk now?
  8. 1point2 is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/16/2009 12:33pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: 剛 and 柔

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Raging Monkey View Post
    Care to recant the earlier smack talk now?
    That's bullshit. What smack? I said that Mcdojo-y marketing is stupid, which it still is and always will be, wherever and whoever it is. That's what Bullshido is about. If you don't like getting questioned, too bad.

    When the advertising was backed up, I said thanks. Max and chingy produced evidence for the claims where you just said "how dare you question me!" Which of these responses--yours or theirs--is more productive?

    Because it looks to me as if their approach answered the questions and closed the case, whereas yours just prolonged the issue.
    What a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable. -Xenophon's Socrates
  9. Raging Monkey is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/16/2009 1:15pm


     Style: BJJ, JJJ and JKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2 View Post
    That's bullshit. What smack? I said that Mcdojo-y marketing is stupid, which it still is and always will be, wherever and whoever it is. That's what Bullshido is about. If you don't like getting questioned, too bad.

    When the advertising was backed up, I said thanks. Max and chingy produced evidence for the claims where you just said "how dare you question me!" Which of these responses--yours or theirs--is more productive?

    Because it looks to me as if their approach answered the questions and closed the case, whereas yours just prolonged the issue.
    Gee, I'm sorry... I hadn't had the time to come back to thread until today. Some of us don't live on the interwebz.

    Since others had already explained why you were wrong, there was no point in me rehashing it.

    Regardless you accused Lloyd of "ridiculous claims, hidden fees, and price gouging." None of which are true. Now, I consider those smack-talk, perhaps you have a different term for it but regardless it was bullshit on your part.
  10. 1point2 is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/16/2009 1:25pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: 剛 and 柔

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm sorry, there was a miscommunication. I was speaking generally, not specifically, when referring to those specific practices. I can see where my post seemed to blur that line.

    I was trying to make two points:

    1) that "why don't you come down and see" and "LMAO@this entire thread" is the kind of crap that drives Bullies batshit in MABS when it comes from Chunners.

    2) McDojo != Bullshido, but McDojo also has various meanings. When I say McDojo, I mean dishonest and bullshit business practices (like price gouging, which I don't and didn't think or claim Lloyd Irvin engages in). When WhiteShark or Omega say McDojo, he means dojo that teach TKD to kids and has Back-to-School specials and uses money mailers. The distinction is important, and it appears that it applies here.

    Anyway, look: the claims were brought up, the claims were refuted, it's all good. I have been educated. This thread remains as a clear explanatory aid to future readers.
    What a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable. -Xenophon's Socrates
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