222061 Bullies, 3469 online  
  • Register
Our Sponsors:

Results 101 to 110 of 185
Page 11 of 19 FirstFirst ... 7891011 12131415 ... LastLast
Sponsored Links Spacer Image
  1. galois is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    London
    Posts
    468

    Posted On:
    9/12/2009 6:06pm


     Style: MT and judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kagan View Post
    Are you saying this action was not a feign?


    How about this: A fighter is an asshole for not following the ref's directions. That's what the opponent who was KO'ed did. The KO'er followed the ref's directions.
    Sure the action was a feint but the rest of your argument doesn't follow from this. What you've done is argue along the lines of "rape is sex, therefore, if you think rape is bad you must want to ban sex".

    As for the new point, asshole, dick etc. are subjective terms so there's no right or wrong, only consistency and inconsistency. Personally I wouldn't call the guy getting suckered an asshole, only a dumbass, but that's just my opinion.

    I would say though that in general the rules of a sport do not correspond exactly with the way 'the public' (whatever that is) want the sport to be played. For most people "no one stopped me doing it" is not a valid excuse for being a **** in any circumstances. The number of boos in the audience and the number of condemnations from people on this board, who, let's not forget, have no vested interest in a long match, attests to this fact.

    Edit: deleted repeated word.
    Last edited by galois; 9/12/2009 6:16pm at .
  2. Conde Koma is offline
    Conde Koma's Avatar

    Thumbs up!

    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Oakland, CA (East Bay Area)
    Posts
    2,247

    Posted On:
    9/12/2009 6:11pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo,MT,Boxing,BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It's more than just the length of the match, you see fighters tap gloves during the match plenty of times. When there's a low blow or another accidental foul, a lot of fighters will tap gloves to signify, "things are cool, let's get back to the actual competition."
  3. Tom Kagan is offline
    Tom Kagan's Avatar

    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    New York, NY USA
    Posts
    5,602

    Posted On:
    9/12/2009 6:31pm

    supporting member
     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by galois View Post
    Sure the action was a feint but the rest of your argument doesn't follow from this. What you've done is argue along the lines of "rape is sex, therefore, if you think rape is bad you must want to ban sex".
    Now who's creating strawmen? Mutually agreed sex is sex.

    The bell rung. The mutually agreed start of the fight is ... (wait for it) ... A FIGHT.


    Quote Originally Posted by Conde Koma View Post
    It's more than just the length of the match, you see fighters tap gloves during the match plenty of times. When there's a low blow or another accidental foul, a lot of fighters will tap gloves to signify, "things are cool, let's get back to the actual competition."
    Touching gloves DURING a round is stupid.

    "I say old chap, a bit of a low blow! Sorry about that my good fellow! Fancy another go? Why yes my good man! Can I get you another cup of tea first?"

    Mandancing.
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
  4. galois is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    London
    Posts
    468

    Posted On:
    9/12/2009 6:32pm


     Style: MT and judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kagan View Post
    Now who's creating strawmen? Mutually agreed sex is sex.
    I'm not creating a strawman, I'm using an example to illustrate the erroneous nature of your logic.

    Edit: spelling
  5. Tom Kagan is offline
    Tom Kagan's Avatar

    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    New York, NY USA
    Posts
    5,602

    Posted On:
    9/12/2009 6:38pm

    supporting member
     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by galois View Post
    I'm not creating a strawman, I'm using an example to illustrate the erronious nature of your logic.
    The logic that not expecting a fight to be on even after the ref told you so but getting on his opponent's case instead is stupid because it's a fight? ****, it should be a 1/2 point deduction for offering to tap gloves DURING a round due to stalling.


    People booed Royce Gracie for being "unsportsmanlike" when he pulled Kimo's ponytail, too.

    Bullshit.
    Last edited by Tom Kagan; 9/12/2009 6:43pm at .
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
  6. galois is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    London
    Posts
    468

    Posted On:
    9/12/2009 7:13pm


     Style: MT and judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kagan View Post
    The logic that not expecting a fight to be on even after the ref told you so but getting on his opponent's case instead is stupid because it's a fight?
    This is obviously not what I was talking about.
  7. Tom Kagan is offline
    Tom Kagan's Avatar

    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    New York, NY USA
    Posts
    5,602

    Posted On:
    9/12/2009 7:19pm

    supporting member
     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by galois View Post
    This is obviously not what I was talking about.

    But it was what *I* was talking about.


    If he had instead yelled "LOOK OUT! BEHIND YOU!!", then KOed his opponent if his opponent fell for it, how many people would have cheered and laughed instead of booed him?

    Hypocrites.
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
  8. galois is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    London
    Posts
    468

    Posted On:
    9/12/2009 8:15pm


     Style: MT and judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kagan View Post
    But it was what *I* was talking about.
    It's the position you're trying to justify yes but my point is only that your 'feint' argument doesn't support it. You tried to say that because people are happy with some kinds of feints they must be happy with all feints, but this is by no means a logical necessity and you've not provided an extra step in the argument to justify the conclusion. My example was an absurd argument made with the same logical form in order to demonstrate the invalidity of that form.

    I don't believe condemning a sucker punch of the kind in question but not a traditional feinted attack is inconsistent or hypocritical, and I think you'll be hard pressed to demonstrate otherwise.

    I don't think saying the event was a fight is particularly compelling either, for two reasons. Firstly, it's not a fight, it's a sporting event. Many people don't like their sports to be 'win at all costs' affairs and MMA is no different. Call it honour, sportsmanship whatever, it may mean different things to different people but it exists. As a general principle a lot of people disagree with the idea that everything is ok so long as it's legal, as this discussion indicates.

    Secondly, even in a real fight there are dick moves. There are things I wouldn't do to people except as a last resort. I know this is a little different to the point in question but I'm just trying to say that morals don't go out the window as soon as a real fight starts, let alone a sport fight. The fact that in most situations really fucking someone up is illegal is irrelevant unless we want to equate morality with legality, which I for one certainly do not.

    Edit: I'm not trying to say one way or another whether touching gloves after the bell should be encouraged or abolished, only that the presence of a social convention within the ring makes it possible to defy/exploit that convention and be reguarded as a dick. This is what has happened here.
    Last edited by galois; 9/12/2009 8:25pm at .
  9. Tom Kagan is offline
    Tom Kagan's Avatar

    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    New York, NY USA
    Posts
    5,602

    Posted On:
    9/12/2009 8:50pm

    supporting member
     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by galois View Post
    My example was an absurd argument made with the same logical form in order to demonstrate the invalidity of that form.
    I thought the absurd part of your argument was when you used the argumentum ad populum to bolster your opinion.

    Touching gloves DURING a fight is stupid. An entire arena booing a guy for exploiting someone's stupidity doesn't make it less stupid. But if he yelled 'LOOK BEHIND YOU!" and won, people would laugh and cheer. I guess, by your logic, this wouldn't be unsportsmanlike then, right?

    Additionally, claiming this case is unsportsmanlike by alluding to other examples in an attempt to draw correlation with other, more gross, examples of 'win at all costs' mentality isn't really a different argument than my claiming this is no different than any other feign, either.



    Heath Herring KOed a guy who goaded him via a kiss in PRIDE before the bell rang. That's a suckerpunch. Following the ref's directions after the fight starts? No. "Are you ready? Are you ready? LET'S GET IT ON! .... Oh, wait, I didn't really mean that, you two should do that terrorist fist bump thingy first."


    The crowd booing this guy? That's a lack of sportsmanship. So is him yelling at the crowd afterward.
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
  10. Rath is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Ottawa, Canada
    Posts
    91

    Posted On:
    9/12/2009 9:30pm


     Style: Half-assery

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Man doing the sukerpunch was being a dick for faking the sign of respect.

    Man getting sucker punched was being careless in not defending himself.

    Taking advantage of a common social grace in this manner is unsportsmanlike. It is however legal and 100% the fault of the man getting punched. He should have been prepared for such an attack.

    /thread
Page 11 of 19 FirstFirst ... 7891011 12131415 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Powered by vBulletin™© contact@vbulletin.com vBulletin Solutions, Inc. 2011 All rights reserved.