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  1. willaume is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/07/2009 3:31am


     Style: aikido, medieval fencing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    longpoint, sprechfechter and redel

    from the HEMA vs fencing, I though that would make a nice new thread, not to derail Mister Scott early movie very apt critic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grimnir69 View Post
    Sprechfenster, the "speaking window", is a way to feel your opponent's intentions by maintaining a bind, and counter with a suitable attack, either a strike, thrust or a cut, although I agree that a winden followed by a thrust or a short cut to the hands are the most common. This is also a bit similar to the closeness of Kendo fighters. But with the Liechtenauer tradition (can't really speak for Fiore), closeness is considered dangerous, since the closer you get, the less control you will have of your situation.

    The Langenort is basically a static, outreached point, where you try to keep the opponent at bay while retreating. It is also good for luring your opponent to try to krumphau your blade and then simply durchwechsel by slipping the point under his cut, letting the opponent "impale" himself on your point. The Langenort is also a transitory guard in various ober- and unterhaus, from which it is easy to slip into other thrust guards.

    So, to an extent I can see similaties here, in the sense that these two guards are fairly outreached and often are follow by thrusting. But, essentially, I really think there are few similarities between the bladework of sports fencing and Hema. Some certain mechanics, yes and only superficially a few positions.

    At least these are my understanding of these. I would love to hear you expand on your ideas though.
  2. willaume is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/07/2009 4:25am


     Style: aikido, medieval fencing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hello
    Well the guy in white is fencing instructor (maitre d’arme in France he has to do the 3 weapons). and he could see a lots of similitude with longsword and modern fencing now as you say, it is clear than the weapons cause a certain way to aplly it.
    Long sword is not the only hema weapons, after the understand the rules, Olympic fencer are very good with small sword, especially fleuretist and epeeist.
    I have to say that I tend to indulge toward a tad outrageous one-liners, and I believe that Ringeck is the dogs danglers so…

    Well my take on sprechfenster (talking window or talking fencing) can only. Is “when you stay strong out of arm extended and examine is arguments”. So you are not really close, as in schnitt, duchlaufen or ringen an schwret close.

    I see it as a long range bind.
    Basically, you are right we always fells ours opponent so spechfenster, redel and langen ort are what we always we do but at a longer distance

    Here is what I call a normal bind
    YouTube - Stage Escrime médiévale Lille 2009 - 2ème Session - partie 2

    This is what I understand with the long point (sprechfenster being the same thing but with sword contact at the start of the action)
    YouTube - Stage Escrime médiévale Lille 2009 - 2ème Session - partie 3

    For me the difference between a normal bind and langenort/sperchfenster is that you start with extended arm. So for what we do to be called sprechfenster we need to start in hangen or langen ort. In a normal bind you will usually start with your arms more bended.
    The first bit of the sprecht fenchten
    Item, schlecht er vom schwert umb mitt ainem oberhaw dir zu° der anderen sytten, so bind mitt storck sinem haw nach (47 v) mitt der langen schniden, im obeb ein zu° dem kopff
    Item strikes he you from the sword around with an overhand strike at the other side, so bind with strength his strike with the long edge, giving him one high to the head.

    Is exactly the same thing as the piece from the Zhorn when you defend against he abnehmen (detachement)
    Ain bruch wider daß abnemen.
    Mörck, wenn du mitt ainem starck am schwert bindest, ruckt er dan sein schwert ubersich, oben abe von dinem schwert, vnd hawt dir zu° der anderen sytten am schwert wider eyn zu° dem kopffe, so bind starck mitt der langen schnyden jm oben eyn zu° dem kopffe.
    A breaking against the abnemen (detachement)
    Note, when you sbins strongly at the sword with another, should he pull is sword back over itself, over and away from your sword and strikes you at the other side at the sword going anew to the head. So bind strongly with the long edge giving him one high to the head.

    So you are right it is the same thing but the difference is with eth sprechtfechter we
    Mörck: das haisset das sprechfensten: wenn er dir mitt hewen oder versetzenn an das schwert bindet, so belib starck auß gerechten armen mit der langen schniden am schwert, mitt dem ort im vor dem gesichte
    Not this si called the sprechtfesten: when he strikes or displace binding at the sword so stand strong out of extended arns with the long edge at the sword and the point to his face,

    So to be a sprech fencing you need to have the arme extended the sword pointing to his face, in the zornh case you are in a Zhornort.

    To sum up I agree with you it is the same move, just as everything you do in the bind is going to be either an aussernemhen or the 3rd narchraisen.
    Form me the difference is when and why we do apply it.

    I think it covers the case where you opponent engages your blade and he whisdraw, to prevent you to develop your game or when you need to catch up with him if he wisdraw very quickly or to close in when he try’s to maintain an engagement distance that does not give you a way to deliver a strike that is likely to you the vor.
    So it tend to be a quite narrow point oriented section of the fencing

    phil
  3. Grizzly216 is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/07/2009 5:57am

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     Style: swordfighting (european)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Helllo Philippe,

    nice way to explain.

    The dynamics of the bind and those of Sprechfenster is basically dealing with pressure applied on your blade and moving/deciding according to what the sensitivity gives you. Well, at least that's the basica, one can, of course say way more about it

    I have written a weblog about the German style, I mainly discuss these concepts to inform the people who don't do any HEMA.

    No one has to agree with me of course but take some time to have a look:

    http://longswordfighting.blogspot.com

    Cheers,
    Bert B
  4. Grimnir69 is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/08/2009 4:48am


     Style: HEMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think the difference in perspective here is that I regard the sprechfenster and longpoint as something you enter naturally when fighting either in transition between attacks/defense or as a feint to lure your opponent into a position where you can attack better with a nachreissen attack.

    Basically, you don't use these guards as much as the primary guards. That is why we call them secondary guards.

    The Ringeck manuscripts describe various techniques for doing so, but the teachings really have to be regarded as a whole.

    In my opinion, the sprechfenster often comes in the form of a very short window of opportunity, where the opponent hesitates. With great experience, you can also instinctively respond correctly if your opponent attacks from a more static sprechfenster. However, it certainly leaves you more vulnerable than in the primary guards.

    The basic "flaw" with these guards is that they leave you with short and weak attacks, a shorter time to respond to an attack and with greater risk of being set aside by a absetzen, versetzen, a krumphau or just about any of the core techniques described in the manuscripts. They can certainly be used with success, when used "correctly", though.

    Close combat, krieg, is dangerous according to the masters and should be done wisely. Just look at the closeness of the points to the heads in the clips you embedded. It is fairly easy to strike the point aside with your hand or grip the blade for a disarm, not to mention an absetzen thrust.

    Krieg

    Liechtenauer: "Das öben mörck Hawe stich leger waÿch oder hört In des vnd fár nach /on hurt dein krieg sich nicht gauch Weß der krieg riempt oben nÿder wirt er beschämpt.

    Ringeck:
    "So salt du / in das / wissen welchses dir am besten sÿ ob du mitt dem vor oder mitt dem nach an in hurten solt

    Aber du solt dir mitt dem an hurten nicht zu gauch lassen sÿn mitt dem krieg wenn der krieg ist nicht anders dann die winden am."

    - Both masters advise against close combat, Krieg. The advise is to always know and choose what is best to do with regards to thrust, strike or slicing, You should avoid "thoughtless", rash close combat since it is nothing more than "winden".

    Many of the attacks from these guards are thrusts, which in my opinion, is not the primary strength of a longsword. Strike first, thrust second and third slice is a good recipe that of course can be varied.

    Sprechfenster
    "Mörck das haisset das sprechfenster Wenn er dir mitt hewen oder versetzenn an das schwert bindet So belib starck auß gerechten armen mitt der langen schniden am schwert mitt dem ort im vor dem gesichte vnd stand freÿlich vnd besich sin sach was er gegen dir trÿben wöll

    Item schlecht er vom schwert umb mitt ainem oberhauw dir zu der anderen sÿtten So bind mitt storck sinem hawe nach mitt der langen schniden im oben ein zu dem kopff

    Oder schlecht er vmb mitt der zwer So fall im mitt dem obern schnitt in die arme

    Oder zuckt er sin schwert an sich vnd will dir vnnden zu stechen So raise im nach an dem schwert vnd setz im oben an
    Item oder will er sich vom schwert nicht abziechen noch umbschlachen So arbait du am schwert mit dem duplieren vnd sunst mit anderen stucken darnach alß du enpfindest die waich vnd die hört am schwert."

    - Sprechfenster is simply to stand or remain in bind with point against the opponent's face and try to sense what the opponent intends to do. That is all. From there, there are certain responses to the opponent's attacks or lack thereof.

    Techniques from Sprechfenster:

    The opponent makes an Oberhau on the other side - Schielhau or zornhau to the head from the bind.

    The opponent makes aZwerchhau on other side - Slice, Abschneiden, to the arms from below.

    The opponent makes a thrust from below - Remain in sprechfenster and move forward then thrust to the head.

    No attack - From sprechfenster attack with duplieren or other winden techniques depending on the strength of the bind.

    Langenort
    "Mörck Ee wenn du mitt dem zufechten zu nahent an in kümst So setze dinen lincken fuß vor vnd halt im den ort auß gerächten armen lang gegen dem gesicht oder der brust

    Hawt er denn dir oben nider zu dem kopffe So wind mitt dem schwert gegen sinen hauw vnd stich im zu dem gesicht

    Oder hawet er von oben nider oder von vnden auff dir zu dem schwert vnd will dir den ort wegk schlachen So wechsel durch vnd stich im zu der anderen sÿtten zu der blöß

    Oder trifft er dir mitt dem hauw das schwert mitt störcke so lauß din schwert vmb schnappen So triffest du in zu dem kopff Laufft er dir ein So trÿb die ringen oder den schnitt."

    - Techniques from Langenort:

    The opponent makes a Zornhau - Wind to upper Hengen and then thrust from above.

    The opponent makes a Krumphau / Underhau - Durchwechsel and then thrust to opening on the other side.

    The opponent makes a forceful strike against the sword, for instance a strong zornhau, krumphau or streichen - Use the momentum to strike on the other side with a Schnappen" strike.

    The opponent tries to overrun you, Uberlauffen - Use slicing, Schnitt, or wrestling, "Ringen".

    Finally, I don't think we disagree much. It is much a discussion of priority of guards and techniques, I think.

    As Ringeck advises: ""So salt du / in das / wissen welchses dir am besten". What is right in one situation is not in another...
    Last edited by Grimnir69; 9/08/2009 5:20am at .
  5. Grimnir69 is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/08/2009 5:37am


     Style: HEMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Oh, and I am reading your post again a couple of times, since I don't fully understand some passages. So please read my post with that understanding. :)

    Later...
  6. Grimnir69 is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/08/2009 5:57am


     Style: HEMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by willaume View Post
    Hello
    For me the difference between a normal bind and langenort/sperchfenster is that you start with extended arm. So for what we do to be called sprechfenster we need to start in hangen or langen ort. In a normal bind you will usually start with your arms more bended.
    phil
    I think I need to take this apart to be able grasp what you are saying and where we disagree. :)

    My view here is that although both guards are extended, I also think that a normal bind should be extended, for instance in a zornhau bind. Otherwise you are not using your reach or force to its full potential.

    If you remain in the Zornhau bind, however shortly, trying to sense what the opponent intends to do, then you are in Sprechfenster. If you instantly leave the bind, then it was just a normal bind and nothing more. This can of course also be done from a thrust from below.

    The sprechfenster can come as a natural position in transition between actions, when one of the fighters hesitate and the other chooses to remain in the bind, or as an agreement between both parties, such as is often seen in Kendo (at least a bit similar). The latter is where you start in Hengen or Langenort, as you say. Normally you don't choose the latter though, for the reasons I tried to describe earlier.

    Btw, I have a copy of your Ringeck-translation. I will give it a read as soon as I can find the time! I bet it will be interesting! :)
  7. Grizzly216 is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/08/2009 6:00am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: swordfighting (european)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Agreed, the guards are not passive, they are begin, end or transitory, but not passive waiting postures.

    And they come and go.

    I also see them a bit as reference points.

    Grizzly216
  8. Grimnir69 is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/08/2009 6:42am


     Style: HEMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Phil, I am not entirely sure that we interpret Langenort the same either.

    The way I see it, it should be done with the arms FULLY extended as from a thrust, order to keep your opponent as far away from you as possible.

    Moving your hands back, down, up or to the sides gets you closer to extended versions of Hengen or Eisenport in my opinion and is usually necessary to be able to attack from Langenort, apart from a simple durchwechsel and letting the opponent run into the point.

    And when you mentioned a normal bind, I would rather say that they are normal, "too short" binds, since the theoretical, preceding strikes are too short to reach their targets. Thus you have to depend on a secondary attack; a thrust, duplieren, abschneiden etc.

    Would you please also describe your interpretation of duplieren? It appears to be quite different from ours and looks more like a winden/thrust in the videos.

    The way we do it from bind is like this. (The key here is the pommel motion which describes the letter D and moving your hands and body to the left side):

    While remaining in the bind, push the pommel forwards in order to wind the binding point towards your opponent's "weak" and load your strike with more force.

    At the same time push your hands towards the left with a passing step to the left and push the pommel to the right. (Make sure not to push your hands downwards or you may force his blade onto your leg)

    Strike down with the long edge to the opponent's upper openings, the shoulder, neck or head while pulling the pommel back as with any strike.

    Everything should, as usual, be done in one single and continuous motion.
    Last edited by Grimnir69; 9/08/2009 6:57am at .
  9. willaume is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/08/2009 7:38am


     Style: aikido, medieval fencing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Grimnir69 View Post
    I think I need to take this apart to be able grasp what you are saying and where we disagree. :)

    My view here is that although both guards are extended, I also think that a normal bind should be extended, for instance in a zornhau bind. Otherwise you are not using your reach or force to its full potential.

    If you remain in the Zornhau bind, however shortly, trying to sense what the opponent intends to do, then you are in Sprechfenster. If you instantly leave the bind, then it was just a normal bind and nothing more. This can of course also be done from a thrust from below.

    The sprechfenster can come as a natural position in transition between actions, when one of the fighters hesitate and the other chooses to remain in the bind, or as an agreement between both parties, such as is often seen in Kendo (at least a bit similar). The latter is where you start in Hengen or Langenort, as you say. Normally you don't choose the latter though, for the reasons I tried to describe earlier.

    Btw, I have a copy of your Ringeck-translation. I will give it a read as soon as I can find the time! I bet it will be interesting! :)
    hello
    Well I am not sure we even disagree. It may just be what we respectively call extended and our book of reference.
    What I am trying to say is that we probably do the similar thing but just call the bits and pieces differently.
    We probably do the krump abstezen against the master, the one were you strike the flat and hit him with the short edge (de facto a struzhaw) the same way. the only difference is that you would call that sperctfechten and I would not.

    There are two parts in a zhorn the strike which finishes in the zornhott (a ringeck only term) and the thrust, which happen to be a winden as well.
    Now to be able to thrust you need to be to have some slack to extend for your thrust but it is not Krieg or kendo. That is the zornhott.

    Now when we trust we will end up in a hangen or the long point. What will happen from there will be sperchtfensten. So for me the winding piecesof the zhorn are sprechtfensten but the initial thrust of the zornh is not.

    At that stage he does not have a choice he must stay in the bind, otherwise you do not meet the 3 requirement to be in the Vor: Having a direct line of attack, blocking his direct line of attack so that he must parry or be hit.
    If he can void, in my opinion you did not stay true to the system initial advice which is that that you need to strike so that he can not change through. If he can void he can change though.

    Regardless, on the Zornhott, he can to close up, bat us out of the way , detach, wind what ever All the fencing action are going to be the same as if we were in what I call sprechtfensten but we do not have our arm extended yet hence it can not be called sprechtfensten as such.
    As well on the Zornhott he can close the line and move back, which will lead us straight into a sprechtfenster or a long ort as we will need to extend to prevent him to disengage. (Or if he too quick not bother and start the getting into range again (aka Zu fechten)


    phil
  10. Grimnir69 is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/08/2009 8:45am


     Style: HEMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hm, I think I begin to understand the root of the slight difference in interpretations.

    First of all, it seems as if you have a similar interpretation to that of Hugh Knight regarding the Zornhau as a cut to the sword and not to the head, which means it has to be followed by a winden/thrust or duplieren.

    I see the strike to the head as the primary attack, just as the zwerchhau or the schielhau and the zornort thrust as a secondary attack if the strike doesn't land properly.

    I also do not count the techniques and positions available from Sprechfenster (winden, mutieren, duplieren, zucken etc) as integral parts of the sprechfenster. In fact, I don't really regard sprechfenster as a guard at all, but a strategic choice during combat that gives you better tactile control of what to do with your hands.

    If the opponent tries to leave the bind you simply maintain the bind in whatever direction he moves and attack with a winden thrust or strike, or even a slice. A game of "follow-the-leader" if you will.

    Basically, this is what I think all the single time counterattacks are about, first find a bind and then angle the point into a strike or thrust that hits an opening. For initial attacks it is more a question of covering lines while reaching openings and then try to adapt to the situation as it evolves. You always have to cover your lines, no matter who attacks first.

    Footwork is of course also incredibly important in this context, but I have to run off now. Maybe we can continue this discussion a little later. It is quite interesting to hear different interpretations!

    The proper "Sprechfenster" guard, but without a bind would be Eisenport, in my opinion. This is where I'd rather stand for a while. Sprechfenster is simply too close and dangerous.

    With feints however, things are quite different. :)
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