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  1. P Marsh is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/25/2010 1:31am


     Style: Boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I wonder why they haven't used the Egyptians yet? They had some pretty funky gear for a civilization that old. Oh well, at least I'm looking forward to the episode with the SS and I hope they make them fight Spetsnaz because I love that knife-gun far too much.
  2. eyebeams is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/25/2010 1:35am


     Style: Kickboxing/Grappling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by excludedmiddle View Post
    There are a few other things the show does not take into account, like the realism of their training and the psychological side of their training. For instance, Spartan training consisted of actually killing people (their slaves), while the Samurai training included a ton of useless kata-like stuff, and then they spent even more time on completely unrelated things like poetry and philosophy. Weapons and armor differences aside, pitting the two IMO would be kinda like your average karate point fighter vs. a Greco-Roman wrestler/boxer who regularly competes in vale tudo matches for a living.
    1) The samurai would shoot the Spartan with a rifle, since the sophisticated use of firearms was universal during the late Sengoku period people associate with the classic samurai.

    2) The ancient Greeks not only used kata, but had kata competitions. See:

    http://depthome.brooklyn.cuny.edu/cl...e/pyrrhic.html

    3) Greco-Roman boxing and wrestling bears no confirmed historical relationship to modern boxing and wrestling. "Boxing" and "wrestling" are translations of whatever striking and grappling arts they actually used. What we call boxing and Greco-Roman wrestling are 200 to 300 year old folk sports from the UK and France, respectively, that we adopted for the modern Olympics for the sake of reconstruction. They're less connected to actual Greek combat as SCA heavy fighting is to medieval swordsmanship.

    4) Throughout most of their history, the Spartans primary opponents were their own poorly armed, trained and equipped helots. This was basically what the Spartans were for. The Athenians won Salamis and Marathon, despite being outnumbered; Plataea was considered to be a denoument compared to these two battles, and of course the Spartans were in a minority of the Greek soldiers who lost at Theromopylae. Sparta defeated Atheans 26 years after a plague killed one to two thirds of the Athenian population and in the aftermath of an attempted coup -- and the victory only lasted a year before Spartan-installed tyrants were overthrown.

    You *think* the Spartans are badass largely because the Platonists liked Sparta and hated Athenian democracy, but the fact is that they were pretty much only consistently good at killing their own slaves.
  3. excludedmiddle is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/25/2010 5:25am


     Style: BJJ (blue), Kempo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by eyebeams View Post
    1) The samurai would shoot the Spartan with a rifle, since the sophisticated use of firearms was universal during the late Sengoku period people associate with the classic samurai.

    2) The ancient Greeks not only used kata, but had kata competitions. See:

    http://depthome.brooklyn.cuny.edu/cl...e/pyrrhic.html

    3) Greco-Roman boxing and wrestling bears no confirmed historical relationship to modern boxing and wrestling. "Boxing" and "wrestling" are translations of whatever striking and grappling arts they actually used. What we call boxing and Greco-Roman wrestling are 200 to 300 year old folk sports from the UK and France, respectively, that we adopted for the modern Olympics for the sake of reconstruction. They're less connected to actual Greek combat as SCA heavy fighting is to medieval swordsmanship.

    4) Throughout most of their history, the Spartans primary opponents were their own poorly armed, trained and equipped helots. This was basically what the Spartans were for. The Athenians won Salamis and Marathon, despite being outnumbered; Plataea was considered to be a denoument compared to these two battles, and of course the Spartans were in a minority of the Greek soldiers who lost at Theromopylae. Sparta defeated Atheans 26 years after a plague killed one to two thirds of the Athenian population and in the aftermath of an attempted coup -- and the victory only lasted a year before Spartan-installed tyrants were overthrown.

    You *think* the Spartans are badass largely because the Platonists liked Sparta and hated Athenian democracy, but the fact is that they were pretty much only consistently good at killing their own slaves.

    1 & 2) Lol. Very nice (though irrelevant).

    3) How different would you really expect them to be? I would assume the style of wrestling was at least a little different, probably not as technically advanced and perhaps more grappling oriented, but how different could their boxing really have been? I mean, we only have two hands.

    4) The fact remains that the Spartans still won almost all of their (land) battles against the similarly equipped hoplites of the rest of ancient Greece who used the exact same strategies (until the Thebans changed up their strategy and revolutionized ancient warfare while giving Sparta its first and final defeat of an army at full strength). Also, regarding what you said about the plague, Athens was a giant by ancient Greek standards, having a population which dwarfed Sparta even after subtracting two-thirds of it.


    "You *think* the Spartans are badass largely because the Platonists liked Sparta and hated Athenian democracy"

    Was Herodotus a Platonist? Did these Platonists make up the details about Spartan training or the outcome of battles involving Spartans?
  4. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/25/2010 6:02am

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     Style: Bartitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by excludedmiddle View Post
    1 & 2) Lol. Very nice (though irrelevant).

    3) How different would you really expect them to be? I would assume the style of wrestling was at least a little different, probably not as technically advanced and perhaps more grappling oriented, but how different could their boxing really have been? I mean, we only have two hands.
    It probably comes down to what individuals consider to be major differences, but there were some pretty significant distinctions based on rules; ancient Greek boxing allowed hammerfist strikes, didn't feature rounds or rings in the modern sense, used the left arm mainly for defense and (IIRC) allowed striking below the belt, among other things.

    YouTube- ACTA Ancient Greek boxing at Dijon 2009

    This is obviously a modern reconstruction, but is apparently based on good scholarship and serious pressure-testing. We had a good thread on this subject on the WMA Forum - Greek Boxing with Cestae - No BS MMA and Martial Arts .

    Eyebeams is right in that there is no documented historical connection between ancient Greek boxing or wrestling and the modern sports. Modern "Greco-Roman" wrestling was originally a French rural style called "la lutte a mains platte", which means "wrestling with flat hands"; it was chosen by the Pierre de Coubertin's Olympic Committee in the late 1800s because they thought it resembled the ancient style, based on archaeological evidence. At that time, the Olympic Games were partly intended as a re-enactment or re-construction of the ancient Games.

    The style was then re-named "Greco-Roman wrestling" as its Olympic fame pushed it into prominence ahead of many other European regional styles.
  5. Styygens is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/25/2010 8:50am


     Style: BBT/BJJ/CJKD

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    More Dream Match-ups for the Second Season

    This thread has taken too serious a turn...

    Chuck Norris vs. The Persians:


    Captain America vs. The Nation of France:



    Johnny Lawrence :fist: vs. Daniel LaRusso :bully::

  6. DARPAChief is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/25/2010 11:39am


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This show is all about destroying mannequins.

    Or at least it should be. I really wish they'd just stick to that and downplay the effort at "science". I don't imagine a rigorous look at the question of whether or not one stripe of warrior is more effective against another would make the kind of popcorn entertainment that Spike TV is going for. You just get people on youtube pointing out some rather shameful choices on the part of the network (the ninja reps weren't affiliated in any way with the Bujinkan or any other such organization...IIRC one had a red belt in TKD? And don't even start on the pig tameshigiri...) and others who simply balk at the idea of approaching it seriously at all.


    I'll have to cast my vote in for the zombie kill-a-thon. Romero or Boyle zombies?
  7. TheMightyMcClaw is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/25/2010 12:02pm

    supporting member
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DARPAChief View Post
    This show is all about destroying mannequins.

    Or at least it should be. I really wish they'd just stick to that and downplay the effort at "science". I don't imagine a rigorous look at the question of whether or not one stripe of warrior is more effective against another would make the kind of popcorn entertainment that Spike TV is going for. You just get people on youtube pointing out some rather shameful choices on the part of the network (the ninja reps weren't affiliated in any way with the Bujinkan or any other such organization...IIRC one had a red belt in TKD? And don't even start on the pig tameshigiri...) and others who simply balk at the idea of approaching it seriously at all.
    I do find the inconsistent quality of their "experts" pretty entertaining; I seem to recall one of the Zulu experts was a football player who did kenpo.
    And then on the other hand, they had a former member of the Mujahideen for the Taliban episode.
    The fool thinks himself immortal,
    If he hold back from battle;
    But old age will grant him no truce,
    Even if spears spare him.
  8. CharlieWoopAss2 is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/25/2010 12:29pm


     Style: Isshin-Ryu Karate,JKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm still crying myself to sleep over the cancellation of "Fight Quest"...so....I really don't care.
  9. Hooded Justice is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/25/2010 8:19pm


     Style: Justice/Firearms

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DARPAChief View Post
    I'll have to cast my vote in for the zombie kill-a-thon. Romero or Boyle zombies?
    As a general rule Zombies can only be killed by a head shot or brain destruction, so the Boyle rage zombies don't count and really neither would the Zombieland zombies because they didn't need headshots either, but you can put in the fast '04 DOTD zombies if you wish.

    You could have both slow and fast zombies. Have man pushed carts(grocery carts would work) that have mounts for the gel covered skeletons so they can be moved at any speed needed and if the transport is small enough and you had perhaps a plexiglass hemisphere in front of the cart driver to protect from stray blows, you could get a really good idea of multiple zombies from different directions and accuracy under pressure. Man I should be at spike making this **** real.
  10. Cybren is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/25/2010 8:28pm


     Style: TKD, BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by eyebeams View Post
    1) The samurai would shoot the Spartan with a rifle, since the sophisticated use of firearms was universal during the late Sengoku period people associate with the classic samurai.

    2) The ancient Greeks not only used kata, but had kata competitions. See:

    http://depthome.brooklyn.cuny.edu/cl...e/pyrrhic.html

    3) Greco-Roman boxing and wrestling bears no confirmed historical relationship to modern boxing and wrestling. "Boxing" and "wrestling" are translations of whatever striking and grappling arts they actually used. What we call boxing and Greco-Roman wrestling are 200 to 300 year old folk sports from the UK and France, respectively, that we adopted for the modern Olympics for the sake of reconstruction. They're less connected to actual Greek combat as SCA heavy fighting is to medieval swordsmanship.

    4) Throughout most of their history, the Spartans primary opponents were their own poorly armed, trained and equipped helots. This was basically what the Spartans were for. The Athenians won Salamis and Marathon, despite being outnumbered; Plataea was considered to be a denoument compared to these two battles, and of course the Spartans were in a minority of the Greek soldiers who lost at Theromopylae. Sparta defeated Atheans 26 years after a plague killed one to two thirds of the Athenian population and in the aftermath of an attempted coup -- and the victory only lasted a year before Spartan-installed tyrants were overthrown.

    You *think* the Spartans are badass largely because the Platonists liked Sparta and hated Athenian democracy, but the fact is that they were pretty much only consistently good at killing their own slaves.
    I love you
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