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  1. Ammar is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/24/2010 3:29pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: ex PTK, currently boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've been meaning to do a thread like this eventually, actually.

    From my experience, FMA empty hands seems to have been designed with these in mind:
    1) Other FMA'ers (empty hands and/or knife)
    2) Bums who can't fight

    Honestly, I think it's pretty telling that we've never seen nor heard anything about professional fighters using FMA empty hands nor is it surprising that there are no vids of empty hands sparring sessions.

    I used to do PTK for about a year and a half (currently doing boxing), which lead me to find the Dogbrothers vids which showed me how full contact FMA ACTUALLY is fought. And I learned one thing: If you can't use it in sparring, then you can't use it in a fight. FMA instructors should heed one of the Dogbrothers' credo: "If you saw it taught, you see it fought". If you can't pull it off in a fight, then don't even bother teaching it. I remember reading an interview where Tuhon Gaje claims that if you don't know how to fight(/attack) with a knife, then you don't know how to properly defend yourself from a knife. It's quite funny to see that Tuhon obviously isn't willing to extend that principle unto empty hands vs empty hands as well.

    Now don't get me wrong, I love FMA, or more specificly: I love stick fighting. It saddens me that I can't keep on training it (let's just leave it at that). But I'm not going to let that get in the way of facts: and the facts are that FMA has a poor empty hands system. Stick/weapons fighting, though? Unparallelled.
  2. Mr. Machette is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/24/2010 8:10pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: FMA, Ego Warrior

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ammar View Post
    I've been meaning to do a thread like this eventually, actually.

    From my experience, FMA empty hands seems to have been designed with these in mind:
    1) Other FMA'ers (empty hands and/or knife)
    2) Bums who can't fight

    Honestly, I think it's pretty telling that we've never seen nor heard anything about professional fighters using FMA empty hands nor is it surprising that there are no vids of empty hands sparring sessions.

    I used to do PTK for about a year and a half (currently doing boxing), which lead me to find the Dogbrothers vids which showed me how full contact FMA ACTUALLY is fought. And I learned one thing: If you can't use it in sparring, then you can't use it in a fight. FMA instructors should heed one of the Dogbrothers' credo: "If you saw it taught, you see it fought". If you can't pull it off in a fight, then don't even bother teaching it. I remember reading an interview where Tuhon Gaje claims that if you don't know how to fight(/attack) with a knife, then you don't know how to properly defend yourself from a knife. It's quite funny to see that Tuhon obviously isn't willing to extend that principle unto empty hands vs empty hands as well.

    Now don't get me wrong, I love FMA, or more specificly: I love stick fighting. It saddens me that I can't keep on training it (let's just leave it at that). But I'm not going to let that get in the way of facts: and the facts are that FMA has a poor empty hands system. Stick/weapons fighting, though? Unparallelled.
    Maybe you just learned some crummy empty hands.

    It works well for me.
  3. Dsimon3387 is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/24/2010 8:15pm

    Join us... or die
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Machette View Post
    Maybe you just learned some crummy empty hands.

    It works well for me.

    haha lol mr M ochams razor at work here. OK ite my turn stay tuned
    This thread never was a high quality conversation - My friend vern Gilbert on the William Acquier thread.

    The fight in question having started over who owns which piece of rubble. Nicko1;2233174 On the Acquier Kim Fiasco slash thread.
  4. Dsimon3387 is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/24/2010 8:23pm

    Join us... or die
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ammar View Post
    I've been meaning to do a thread like this eventually, actually.

    From my experience, FMA empty hands seems to have been designed with these in mind:
    1) Other FMA'ers (empty hands and/or knife)
    2) Bums who can't fight

    Honestly, I think it's pretty telling that we've never seen nor heard anything about professional fighters using FMA empty hands nor is it surprising that there are no vids of empty hands sparring sessions.

    I used to do PTK for about a year and a half (currently doing boxing), which lead me to find the Dogbrothers vids which showed me how full contact FMA ACTUALLY is fought. And I learned one thing: If you can't use it in sparring, then you can't use it in a fight. FMA instructors should heed one of the Dogbrothers' credo: "If you saw it taught, you see it fought". If you can't pull it off in a fight, then don't even bother teaching it. I remember reading an interview where Tuhon Gaje claims that if you don't know how to fight(/attack) with a knife, then you don't know how to properly defend yourself from a knife. It's quite funny to see that Tuhon obviously isn't willing to extend that principle unto empty hands vs empty hands as well.

    Now don't get me wrong, I love FMA, or more specificly: I love stick fighting. It saddens me that I can't keep on training it (let's just leave it at that). But I'm not going to let that get in the way of facts: and the facts are that FMA has a poor empty hands system. Stick/weapons fighting, though? Unparallelled.
    The biggest problem with your premise is that you are treating the art to a division that a traditional FMA person would not make. One of the distinguishing features of the older FMA stuff is that weapons are integrated. Even the modernized systems like Sayoc stuff feel inclined to always have a way to have weapon so that weapon is not some separate object left in the dojo and picked up at will.

    FMA will always be partially about movements and concepts that integrate and generalize weapons and treat the body as a thing that is part of this assembly of weapons. You simply cannot put down the blade and do something completely different now.... No what you do is designed to work with hand stick or blade.

    You have to be damn good in FMA to be able to integrate the art well enough to use the body empty against a martial artist who only trains hands, or the grapple... but then again how would that fellow do if you put two knives in the octogon?

    You may not learn it as quick but FMA has an answer for this conondrum...
    This thread never was a high quality conversation - My friend vern Gilbert on the William Acquier thread.

    The fight in question having started over who owns which piece of rubble. Nicko1;2233174 On the Acquier Kim Fiasco slash thread.
  5. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/24/2010 8:27pm

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     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dsimon3387 View Post
    You may not learn it as quick but FMA has an answer for this conondrum...
    Guns?
  6. Dsimon3387 is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/24/2010 11:08pm

    Join us... or die
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by DerAuslander108 View Post
    Guns?
    One thing people often do is take a skill set, present it, sometimes out of context and then say "well this art is weak in this." sometimes they are absolutely right. But other times The art is not weak in that area, it just aproaches it round about so maybe it takes you longer to get proficient in that avenue while you get better in other things.

    The Dog Brothers are indeed an example of how the FMA stuff looks when you go tongs and hammer. Some of the stuff is strong and some of it can be put on in the compost bin haha. BUT there is a response from FMA regarding fighting scenerios.... as compared to some arts where there is virtually nil material.
    This thread never was a high quality conversation - My friend vern Gilbert on the William Acquier thread.

    The fight in question having started over who owns which piece of rubble. Nicko1;2233174 On the Acquier Kim Fiasco slash thread.
  7. Ammar is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/25/2010 1:32am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: ex PTK, currently boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Dsimon3387 View Post
    The biggest problem with your premise is that you are treating the art to a division that a traditional FMA person would not make. One of the distinguishing features of the older FMA stuff is that weapons are integrated. Even the modernized systems like Sayoc stuff feel inclined to always have a way to have weapon so that weapon is not some separate object left in the dojo and picked up at will.

    FMA will always be partially about movements and concepts that integrate and generalize weapons and treat the body as a thing that is part of this assembly of weapons. You simply cannot put down the blade and do something completely different now.... No what you do is designed to work with hand stick or blade.
    That's EXACTLY the problem: Why should I fight in a way that assumes he might have weapons on him, when I'm 100% certain that he doesn't? It's the same argument __ing __un practitioners use by saying you can't take out the "vs Kung Fu" elements out of __ing __un when the system supposes you're going to fight kung fu practitioners. Guess what? People don't fight using mainly kung fu. And guess what? In the western world, people don't usually go out with friggin' knives when they go to the gym.

    Yeah, yeah. I know all about the history, or rather the myths, of phillipinos being sneaky bastards who hid bladed weapons in HTH duels only to slash their opponents. But just because that was, or is, true of the Phillipines doesn't make it true in either Europe or America or wherever. And I know about the "weapon = extension of arm" principle which Tuhon so badly wants us to accept, yet he won't be consistant with his other principles.


    You have to be damn good in FMA to be able to integrate the art well enough to use the body empty against a martial artist who only trains hands, or the grapple... but then again how would that fellow do if you put two knives in the octogon?
    "Yeah, let's see how well Lesnar takes a Dim Mak to the chest or Tiger Claws to the eyes...!"

    Alternatively: "What's the FMAer gonna do when the spetznaz supreme soviet systema soldier pulls out his gun??"

    Totally irrellevant. I'm talking about hand to hand fighting.

    You may not learn it as quick but FMA has an answer for this conondrum...
    Which is?
    Last edited by Ammar; 6/25/2010 2:11am at .
  8. Ammar is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/25/2010 1:35am

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    --
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Machette View Post
    Maybe you just learned some crummy empty hands.

    It works well for me.
    Really? Have you ever went up against an MMAer? or a boxer? Have you ever even sparred? Do you sparr regularly? Do you have any videos of yourself or other FMAers that can confirm that?

    Or are you talking about the magical "On the street" experience which nobody can ever verify?
  9. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/25/2010 8:17am

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     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    After ten years as a bouncer and doing a ton of stupid **** when I was younger, I can tell you that you are never 100% sure he, or his buddies, does not have a weapon, or will not obtain a weapon.
  10. Ammar is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/25/2010 9:12am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DerAuslander108 View Post
    After ten years as a bouncer and doing a ton of stupid **** when I was younger, I can tell you that you are never 100% sure he, or his buddies, does not have a weapon, or will not obtain a weapon.
    So I should always assume in tournaments and sparring sessions from now on that my opponent could be a quarter pinoy and flip a kerambit on me and slice up my guts?
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