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  1. Rock Ape is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/03/2010 8:12am

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    Tgace isn't saying that knife defenses are useless or bad, he's saying that its a fallacy to be under the impression that you can consistently defend against the knife while not being cut or stabbed.

    What part of the English language do you fail to understand because what he wrote was very clear? Or is your dyslexia and other issues impeding you again.

    He also qualified his post with "I think" which is clearly him illustrating this is his OPINION. Given he's a serving Law Enforcement Officer with a considerable number of years experience, perhaps, just perhaps he actually knows what he's talking about.


    How many years of first hand experience do you have to draw on ?
    Last edited by Rock Ape; 8/03/2010 8:15am at .
    "To sin by silence when one should protest makes cowards out of men".

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  2. Ryno is offline

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    Posted On:
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     Style: FMA, Jujutsu/Judo/SAMBO

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    Quote Originally Posted by tgace View Post
    I think that selling someone a line that they can learn to consistently defend against the knife while not being cut or stabbed is a line of ****...which is not to be confused with "don't even bother to learn knife defenses". Which some instructors like to turn the former point into.
    Excellent point. I mean, would a boxing coach ever promise you that he could train you so well that you would never be punched? That promise would seem ridiculous to anyone who fights. Yet boxing is still useful.

    You can always improve. But implying that you can end up invulnerable against a knife attack is just stupid.
  3. Dsimon3387 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/03/2010 11:47pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugo Stiglitz View Post
    Tgace isn't saying that knife defenses are useless or bad, he's saying that its a fallacy to be under the impression that you can consistently defend against the knife while not being cut or stabbed.

    What part of the English language do you fail to understand because what he wrote was very clear? Or is your dyslexia and other issues impeding you again.

    He also qualified his post with "I think" which is clearly him illustrating this is his OPINION. Given he's a serving Law Enforcement Officer with a considerable number of years experience, perhaps, just perhaps he actually knows what he's talking about.


    How many years of first hand experience do you have to draw on ?
    quite a bit. I have studied blade retention techniques for many years... many many years actually... Part of which was taking them away from people during freeplay. part of which was working with blades including sword length down to folders and teaching how to defend against them.

    I have spent a good twenty years or so in this endevour so I think I have quite a bit of experience to draw upon.


    The statement regarding danger holds for any type of situation not simply blades. It applies to hands and feet as well. It applies to sticks....

    Knives have certain characteristics that make them dangerous, very dangerous.... and?
    This thread never was a high quality conversation - My friend vern Gilbert on the William Acquier thread.

    The fight in question having started over who owns which piece of rubble. Nicko1;2233174 On the Acquier Kim Fiasco slash thread.
  4. Dsimon3387 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/03/2010 11:56pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryno View Post
    Excellent point. I mean, would a boxing coach ever promise you that he could train you so well that you would never be punched? That promise would seem ridiculous to anyone who fights. Yet boxing is still useful.

    You can always improve. But implying that you can end up invulnerable against a knife attack is just stupid.
    you can not apply the same scenerio to a knife as a punch and yes you will get cut at times that is not the point of defending against a knife attack The point is surviving.

    My teacher whom taught me about bladework and laid a foundation for me had this situation occur:

    He was attacked with a chain and with another guyw ho had a knife.. he crippled one guy and the other guy had to have his eyes scraped off a car... what saved his life? He was taught to move a certain direction when a knife cut came towards his throat. Moving so had the effect of pulling his cateroid off line and his jugular away so that he survived a cut to the throat.

    This scenerio and the ability to subsequently disarm the guy is more the type of situation one deals with regarding blades and combat...

    The attitude that allows one to give up in that situation would mean that the person giving up probably would have died. That is why I think it is such a bad thing to teach people a mentality that says "you will probably fail."

    I have no problem with the admonishment that people will get cut, I have been cut plenty of times, but you can determine where you get cut and other such things if you practice the skills.
    This thread never was a high quality conversation - My friend vern Gilbert on the William Acquier thread.

    The fight in question having started over who owns which piece of rubble. Nicko1;2233174 On the Acquier Kim Fiasco slash thread.
  5. Dsimon3387 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/03/2010 11:57pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryno View Post
    Excellent point. I mean, would a boxing coach ever promise you that he could train you so well that you would never be punched? That promise would seem ridiculous to anyone who fights. Yet boxing is still useful.

    You can always improve. But implying that you can end up invulnerable against a knife attack is just stupid.
    you can not apply the same scenerio to a knife as a punch and yes you will get cut at times that is not the point of defending against a knife attack The point is surviving.

    My teacher whom taught me about bladework and laid a foundation for me had this situation occur:

    He was attacked with a chain and with another guyw ho had a knife.. he crippled one guy and the other guy had to have his eyes scraped off a car... what saved his life? He was taught to move a certain direction when a knife cut came towards his throat. Moving so had the effect of pulling his cateroid off line and his jugular away so that he survived a cut to the throat.

    This scenerio and the ability to subsequently disarm the guy is more the type of situation one deals with regarding blades and combat...

    The attitude that allows one to give up in that situation would mean that the person giving up probably would have died. That is why I think it is such a bad thing to teach people a mentality that says "you will probably fail."

    I have no problem with the admonishment that people will get cut, I have been cut plenty of times, but you can determine where you get cut and other such things if you practice the skills.
    This thread never was a high quality conversation - My friend vern Gilbert on the William Acquier thread.

    The fight in question having started over who owns which piece of rubble. Nicko1;2233174 On the Acquier Kim Fiasco slash thread.
  6. Rock Ape is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/04/2010 9:18am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dsimon3387 View Post
    I have spent a good twenty years or so in this endevour so I think I have quite a bit of experience to draw upon.
    Hmm.. "freeplay"

    Ok I'll rephrase the question.

    How many actual knife fights have you encountered where the purp intended to physically hurt you ?

    Myself, during a 7.5 year period as a Discipline Officer in a Max Security Prison have been involved in a number of situations facing a blade of some description, I have the scars to prove it. All but one of those encounters took place where I had at least one person as back-up.

    Someone with 20+ years of training is admirable however that just reinforces Tgrace's POV. Does Average Joe needs to train for two plus decades to have anywhere near a chance of surviving a bladed encounter without injury ? I would suggest that may well be the case but not everyone has over two decade's worth of time to devote to such study.

    The bottom line in almost every knife encounter is that the knife user has massive advantage and only needs a modicum of know-how to make his blade effective vs. the substantial amount of training required on the flip-side to be able to deal with such situations.

    I can't comment on the knife culture in your part of the world however, where I live, the vast majority of knife carriers won't show you the blade until you're bleeding so it's almost impossible to anticipate a specific situation or threat. Anyone stupid enough to "SHOW" the fact they have a blade before they use it, well, that's a slightly different situation and one which has the balance of advantage shifting slightly depending upon the demeanour and ability of the person confronted.

    Like you, I have a considerable amount of experience working with bladed weapons, mainly wakazashi and katana length blades and, granted within a very stylised environment however; Muto no jutsu - the skills of blade disarming against someone with confidence and ability with that weapon is pretty much a last ditch and equally futile effort. At least you see that weapon and know of it's existence, thus able to formulate what you may be able to do about it.
    "To sin by silence when one should protest makes cowards out of men".

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  7. DCS is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/04/2010 9:48am

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    Quote Originally Posted by DerAuslander108 View Post
    For lack of a better way to put it, the street is not the ring. Any police officer, bouncer, or anyone else who has been involved in violence will tell you that assuming that you are involved in an unarmed situation that is only going to stay unarmed is foolishly ignorant.
    ^ This
  8. Dsimon3387 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/04/2010 1:08pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugo Stiglitz View Post
    Hmm.. "freeplay"

    Ok I'll rephrase the question.

    How many actual knife fights have you encountered where the purp intended to physically hurt you ?

    Myself, during a 7.5 year period as a Discipline Officer in a Max Security Prison have been involved in a number of situations facing a blade of some description, I have the scars to prove it. All but one of those encounters took place where I had at least one person as back-up.

    Someone with 20+ years of training is admirable however that just reinforces Tgrace's POV. Does Average Joe needs to train for two plus decades to have anywhere near a chance of surviving a bladed encounter without injury ? I would suggest that may well be the case but not everyone has over two decade's worth of time to devote to such study.

    The bottom line in almost every knife encounter is that the knife user has massive advantage and only needs a modicum of know-how to make his blade effective vs. the substantial amount of training required on the flip-side to be able to deal with such situations.

    I can't comment on the knife culture in your part of the world however, where I live, the vast majority of knife carriers won't show you the blade until you're bleeding so it's almost impossible to anticipate a specific situation or threat. Anyone stupid enough to "SHOW" the fact they have a blade before they use it, well, that's a slightly different situation and one which has the balance of advantage shifting slightly depending upon the demeanour and ability of the person confronted.

    Like you, I have a considerable amount of experience working with bladed weapons, mainly wakazashi and katana length blades and, granted within a very stylised environment however; Muto no jutsu - the skills of blade disarming against someone with confidence and ability with that weapon is pretty much a last ditch and equally futile effort. At least you see that weapon and know of it's existence, thus able to formulate what you may be able to do about it.

    lets see....I have to add this statement, I was a crazy bastard at some points and would not condone what I did during those times.

    a) as a bouncer... had more than a few encounters including one involving guns ( an attempted hit on the owner) bottles, chairs, etc. During this time training with Richard wigginton in Philly, I had to disarm a few knives. Broke a wrist on a person in so doing.... almost broke my hand (stupid ass darrell.... I was only around 21 though) hitting someone on their undrawn gun (palm slapp).

    b) Had an open challenge in my dojo that I would disarm the person they could use any weapon they wanted and they could hit me in the ribs as hard as they wanted with any technique (kabuto training).. had a few takers, they agreed to use practice weapon. I was batshit crazy. Had one chinese stylist cut me on the arm, a few other odd cuts... yes practice weapons cut. I had one tai kwon do guy from texas almost crack my ribs open with a great round kick...

    c) taught the Guardian Angels Street patrol after moving to San Francisco, first I assisted teaching the group then eventually I became the teacher for the group. This involved going into crack houses and often fighting with criminals while in a formation. Disarmed more than a few knives at this time, mostly bottled though and canes used as a Han Bo on the street.
    d) as a bouncer at the DNA lounge no knives disarmed, a few bottles now and then.

    I have a few nice scars myself. one on the cheek which adds character. My arms and hands look like they should.... will not be doing any dove commercials any time soon.

    Yes the knife is indeed an equalizer, it is my personal favorite.... I like it more than a gun thats just me. Actually this is a principle that works both ways and a reason to teach about blades imo. Multiple attack scenerios, etc. My own philosophy about a weapon is that it has to be taught and mastered from all aspects, you understand how to disarm as part of how to use, to cut & stab and... how to throw, and in throwing how to throw with no spins (from the grip), etc. You cannot lack confidance with a weapon like a knife... one of the reasons I left the Booj was the jackasses who would carry weapons around smugly and who did not have skills. They will die if someone takes the weapon and is pissed at them for their attitude.

    Dave, imo someone showing you the blade is not so much stupid as a different use of the blade. If I show you the blade I probably want to threaten you and not to cut you. Threatening people is shitty but it is a strategy employed. In your part of the world surely you make sure you know who is past your social distance. I mean if someone is close enough to cut me I am aware of their presence. this may be from bouncing.... when I go to a pub I don;t feel right unless my back is to a wall.

    A knife attack is so fast you have to know where to move, you cannot hope to watch the blade.... you get to the person's flank as fast as you can and what I teach is to control the thumb. The thumb controls the cutting movement. Particularly in Japanese blade work grabbing a wrist on a knife welding arm can get you cut up very fast. the thumb allows you to retain and reverse the weapon.

    Muto Dori is good for movement skills. yeah its not something that one can hope to do against a trained swordsman but good Muto Dori translates as good footwork, good ashi and tai sabaki with a weapon & without. What I like most about Muto Dori skills is that you begin to understand fighting distance and learn how to judge this distance through these skills. Psychologically it is also a good inducer of stress. A fukoro shinai may not cut you but it fucking lets you know its there! an uncovered Shinai even more so really.

    Anyway I am not proud of my stupidity involving the knife challenges.... I was just in one of those "**** it" phases and going on patrol with the Guardian Angels was not the smartest thing to do (some of those guys were real dopes) but at least at that time I was a single guy so if I had been maimed or killed it would not have affected the family. I also like to think a few of those guys made it through because of the training.

    My preference with bladed weapons is single edge which is imo and quite ironickly so, more dangerous to work with (you can push cut, etc) because you can do so much more. I like all lenghts though O dachi is not something I have done much with.... I like single piece construction... hate folders and any design that has to open... unsheath yeah!

    Oh and I got into weapons after about 11 years of kumite in karate. i realized I knew so little about weapons and Kobudo imo "karate moves with weapons" and not really a study of weapons.
    This thread never was a high quality conversation - My friend vern Gilbert on the William Acquier thread.

    The fight in question having started over who owns which piece of rubble. Nicko1;2233174 On the Acquier Kim Fiasco slash thread.
  9. Mider999 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/10/2010 7:44pm


     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chili Pepper View Post
    You wouldn't, or more properly, you couldn't. It's something that drives me nuts about FMA in general: one guy swinging a stick and stopping it in mid-air, so that the other guy can do his half-dozen strikes in response. It's an incredibly common training paradigm.

    And, the mentality carries over into the empty-hand training too - one guy punches and leaves it hanging out in the air.

    Certainly that was the sort of training I originally had, and everybody was doing it that way at the time. Along came the Dog Brothers, and the UFC, and we saw the concepts changing. Certainly I jumped on the band-wagon - my practice has changed radically as a result.
    People like you make me wanan vomit litarally. You look at every other martial art that isnt MM freaing A and think oh it sucks. Why dont you stfu go down to the Dog Brothers gym get your ass kicked by people who study FMA for the real world then come back and apologyze. FMA isnt always about fancy techniques i dont even know what these fancy techniques your talking about. the FMA ive seen was alot of hammerfist, breaking a guys arm, punching him in the bicep, elbowing him across the throat, punching him in the ear, headbutts, more elbows. So were exactly do you guys get these martial arts? I mean every guy in this dump say this martial arts sucks that sucks. Were do you guys go to learn martial arts? Do you just go into any gym and listen to any dumb ass who says OH HEY I KNOW FMA, OR I KNOW SYSTEMA I KNOW THIS I KNOW THAT, and you retards actually believe him and say oh well if this if FMA or JKD or anything it sucks. You also say oh Krav Maga sucks yeah thats why the freaking isreali commandos use it right? Cause it sucks so much you guys are so idiots this place should be shut down cause its full of nothing but idiots.

    Lets see what people use FMA and are also pretty good at kicking ass and still indorse FMA or other arts.

    Erik paulson (trained in JKD, FMA, SILAT, still teaches it along with BJJ CSW, Catch Wrestling)

    Gene Lebell (he indorses systema YES SYSTEMA not that bullshit you see were everyones moving in slow motion but real systema that you see in the russian special forces SPETSNAZ)

    Bas Rutten (he endorses Krav Maga, why? Cause it works and its battle tested you stupid fucks. you should all check out a legit hisardut school so the teacher can show you how there basically trying to smash the other guys face or gouging his eyes out or smashing there wind pipes)

    John Machado (John trained in Jujitsu and Krav maga as well as Judo)

    Carlson Gracie (Carlson Gracie is dead R.I.P. but he was friends with Sam Kwok a WING CHUN expert and thought Wing Chun would be good for a UFC type competition of course it would be cross trained with grappling.)

    Rickson Gracie (GUESS WHAT RICKSON GRACIE HAS A DAN IN AIKIDO GASP GASP GASP)

    Like i said this place is a dump you all have no respect for anyone or anything. You all act like your some big bad ass thugs who walk around and own the streets half of you probably dont even go out after dark cause your mommys dont let you have the car IF you even know how to drive.
  10. Mider999 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/10/2010 7:47pm


     

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    Oh and when you fcks talk **** about Bruce Lee why dont you look up that He was one of the first people to bring up kickboxing. There is no fancy bullshit magic techniques in real martial arts its just hard fking training to destroy someone. But any real teacher will teach you how to injure to a degree. You all think that your gonna run around and kill everyone all thats gonna do is get you in prison were your roommate bubba a 300 pound fat ass is gonna have you bent over and show you his own version of grappling.

    Another thing you idiots when you talk about Kenpo and how it sucks why dont you look up Chuck Libell he also endorses that Hawaiian Kenpo.

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