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  1. Mutt is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/16/2010 4:30pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Filipino Martial Arts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ammar View Post

    SNIP

    When Dan Inosanto wrote a book on the impractical training methods of traditional karate pretty much everybody in the JKD community agreed that they were ****.....then they went and started doing pencak silat, where it's the same ****.

    These people simply don't understand aliveness, they'll tell you that they do and they'll propably believe it themselves too, but they really don't understand. If they did, people like that Blackgrave character and that Romi or Remy or Romeo joker wouldn't have had any members in their clubs.
    Just because some of the people that study these arts don't practice aliveness in the context you understand it does not mean that entire systems of fighting (i.e. FMA or Pentjak Pilat) are "dead" systems. Old school FMA/Silat was largely taught live stick/fist/contact ALL the time, and if you got smacked you'd learn real fast not to **** around. Somewhere in the transition from the older generation of fighters in the Phillipines/Indonesia that went to the wayside (there is a lot more to say on this, but not the right place to say it in my opinion). Ammar, you're right in that a LOT of FMA and Silat schools (especially here in America) don't try to train against uncooperative opponents enough. I give you full concession on that note. However, that is the fault of those individuals and teachers who propagate half-ass training, NOT the systems themselves.
  2. Ammar is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/17/2010 6:09am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: ex PTK, currently boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by jwinch2 View Post
    You may be shocked to realize this, but people don't always put everything they do on youtube for the whole world to see.
    This is the first thing you've said in this thread that's actually on topic.

    And you know what? That's your/their problem. I don't have any reason to believe that anything you say would actually work unless you show me that it works.

    And it's quite hilarious that these clubs will showcase their stick sparrings or knife sparrings for the entire world to see on youtube, but they won't showcase their alleged empty hands sparring. Why's that?



    And, one video may not be representative of their entire training program. Not that you would have bothered to find it anyways. For example, the same gentleman that you just claimed had questionable stick technique also did this video. Is that hard enough stick sparring for you?

    YouTube- 1st Black Eagle Society Fight
    *sigh*

    Why do you insist on making up **** about what I've said? I'm really tired of your derailing this thread.

    Ask yourself this: How come we never see those fancy stick disarms they teach actually being used in sparring?

    The other people I mentioned all do hard sparring in stick as well as empty hand sparring. I've seen their groups do it. They also do compliant drilling as do all FMA styles and oh by the way, pretty much every other martial art as well.
    Yeah, right.

    The bottom line is this. You have 18 months experience in one out of hundreds of systems of FMA. That is next to nothing. You complaining that you cannot pull off FMA empty hand techniques is like a guy who has been training BJJ for 6 months complaining that he can't pull off guard passes very well. No ****. If you want to talk, train. Otherwise, shut the **** up.
    hahahaha I give up. It's pointless talking to you because you just make up stuff about what I've said. I don't know if this is some deliberate attempt to straw man me or if it's just a simple matter of your reading comprehension not being up to standard.

    Anyway, this is the last time I'm going to reply to you in this thread. Because quite frankly it's just a waste of time.
  3. Ammar is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/17/2010 6:40am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: ex PTK, currently boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by tim_stl View Post
    that's not been my experience. please enumerate the styles of fma you have studied, and for how long.



    tim
    How many and for how long? This isn't social antropology, I don't have to spend X amounts of time "studying" a style to see that they're all governed by the same fundamental principles which make FMA.

    No matter if it's Deikiti Tirsia Serada or Kombatan or Kali this, Arnis that, they all follow the same basic principles:

    Triangular footwork
    Slapping over punching
    the principle that weapons = extensions of the body, thus empty hands fighting <---> weaponsfighting where distance and reach influences the usage of the techniques.
    Newcomers begin with the stick
    Limb destruction/gunting
    And so forth.

    The differences lie either in execution or just preference: In Pekiti Tirsia you angle in on the opponent from the outside, and specific focus lies on knife fighting. In Panantukan (kind of the black sheep of FMA) you focus on empty hands techniques and gunting and use fists and approach your enemies mostly straight on boxing style. Obviously, some styles may deviate from one or two of the principles (like panantukan), but it's not like you'll find any style that's so radically different that testing it would be like testing a whole new art alltogether.

    I may not know exactly what *insert adjective* Arnis likes to focus on and what range they prefer to stay in, but I can recognise basic drilling like sombrada or hubud or whatever and I can recognise basic footwork. And whenever there is a technique I don't recognise it's not as if you couldn't incorporate it it into PTK just because it comes from Atienza Kali.
    Last edited by Ammar; 7/17/2010 6:43am at .
  4. Pat Pintados is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/17/2010 11:40pm


     Style: FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by MMAMickey View Post
    There's a verrsion of this that actually works.. it's called boxing
    hahaha. Yup. Just add ball shots, headbutts, knees, elbows and any other dirty **** you can fit into the program, and it's Filipino..

    Sorry, off topic.. it's been a while..
  5. ChenPengFi is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/18/2010 5:04am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Hung Gar, Choy Lay Fut

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    @ Ammar, you seem to still cling to the ridiculous assertion that you can predict the existence of a weapon.
    My personal experience assuming such was nearly fatal.
    I punched the guy hard enough to fold his eyebrow down over his eye. (So much for boxing)
    He then shot in and i pulled guard, getting a guillotine.
    I was stabbed six times before i could put him out, i was simply lucky he didn't hit anything important.(so much for bjj)
    I never saw the weapon until it was coming towards my ribs and he was in my guard.
    Had i done the "proper" move and gone for the kimura at that point, i dunno, i might not even be here today.
    I'm just glad the choke finally worked.
    I urge you to reconsider your position, it is quite ignorant.
  6. variance is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/18/2010 10:22pm


     Style: EF UM A

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ammar View Post
    Hahahahaha I was not referring to the categorical imperative, you schmuck. I'm talking about the rule of skill, one of his two hypothetical imperatives:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_imperative

    Go attend a proper fucking philosophy class. I mean christ, referring to Kant's metaphysics as rhetorics??? Jesus Christ Buddha and Mohammed Ali aka Cassius Clay.


    Oh, Wavemaninawe, I'll respond to you ASAP.
    Sure. I could have been more precise and said Kantian's Metaphysics in your failed rhetoric.

    We're debating. You invoked Kant. (and Failed.) I have a habit of describing frames or structures of arguments as rhetoric collectively.

    and as has already been noted.
    You present yourself as an authority on "aliveness"
    on a forum where aliveness is pretty much considered
    requisite for effective training.

    As others note. your entire basis for claiming empty-hand FMA is fail is anecdotal. (as is most basis in MA incidentally) and assumes the lack of a weapon.
    Last edited by variance; 7/18/2010 10:31pm at .
  7. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/18/2010 10:51pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You night want to study Rhetoric. Yes, you heard me right Study Rhetoric variance used it in the right capacity twice.
  8. Wavemaninawe is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/20/2010 7:41am


     Style: mostly FMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ammar View Post
    But that's exactly what I talking about when I presented the other scenario: Look for cues of him trying to conceal his hands, sense off the vibe. Which is exactly how it pans out in the Dogbrothers video I posted.

    And yeah I know, one of the first things my instructor told me when I began knife drilling was that there's no way you're going to get out unscathed. That would be like expecting to be able to not get hit at all when boxing somebody.
    Guro Denny presented a certain scenario. The video clip they showed presented a different scenario.

    If you actually see a hostile character acting shady then you are in luck and should take that time of heads-up warning to leave. If you get cornered by two people who just start whaling on you right away, there is really no way for you to tell if/when one of them might decide to stab you. You have enough on your mind just fending off punches and kicks.

    I give credit to your teacher. A fitting comparison.






    Quote Originally Posted by Ammar View Post
    True, but what if he manages to simply shake it off? Or to throw you off balance or otherwise interrupt your combos? After that, he's gonna be ready. This is why I feel sparring matches should be practiced, to prevent one from simply being a one-trick pony. Because if you don't get him the first time you try to overrun him, you're propably not going to get him a second time.
    I was referring to something like this.

    It's pretty difficult to defend against a close range rush. Something proven repeatedly with the popular use of the leg shoot in MMA competitions. I don't see too much of a difference except that this comes on a high line. If I manage to execute a move like that properly and the implied MT guy shakes it off, I would suspect that he's not actually MT but more likely some internal CMA guy with mad skills in rooting. O_O

    I certainly don't want to be a one trick pony and I wouldn't use a move like that if I hadn't repeated it in compliance drills and applied it in live sparring. I do however think it's more effective to slam, kick, punch or whatever method of attack you prefer as soon as the opportunity presents itself rather than assume a stance and say "bring it".

    We do a move of checking/trapping the opponent's arms as soon as they rise to anything resembling a guard or strike and immediately lay into the guy with elbows, neck crank, knees and/or whatever is appropriate at the time being. I'm quite fond of it but I wouldn't rely on it alone as a fight stopper.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ammar View Post
    We're basically in agreement. I honestly don't know what why we're even arguing. Everything you're mentioning is the type of stuff I was talking about and illustrated in the Die Less Often DB video.
    I'm arguing because I got the impression of you implying that you can tell in advance if you are about to face an armed assault or not. Something I believe is nearly impossible unless the enemy in question is already holding his weapon in plain sight. Hence why I would encourage the mindset of assuming any aggressor to be armed or likely to arm himself until proven otherwise.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ammar View Post
    I live in Skåne. So that's going to be a problem. But I believe you when you say you practice these things in a live manner.
    Heheheh... obviously. Especially considering the train rates nowadays.

    I appreciate the vote in confidence. :-)



    Quote Originally Posted by Ammar View Post
    Just because it's a generalisation doesn't make it untrue, despite what the Political Correctness movement tries to tell you. And the drilling only method to learning empty hands (and to some extent even stick and/or knife as well) is the standardised method in FMA today and before. Sure there are exceptions, and propably plenty of them since the Dog Brothers upped the ante on what is supposed to be proper FMA/stickfighting. But most clubs out there still teach as they were taught, and they teach techniques through drills that they themselves have never pulled off in real life nor have they propably ever tried to because otherwise they'd know it was pointless and just abandon it. Or they're just fooling themselves into believing that somebody else must've pulled this off before, since it is being taught.
    It's untrue if you insinuate that the whole community is clueless. I hope you didn't suggest that my club does things properly because I'm one of the more civil to you on this thread.

    But I still agree that the FMA community would gain credibility by uploading some more empty hands sparring online.



    Quote Originally Posted by Ammar View Post
    Matt Thornton has a relevant anecdote on a similar subject that he brings up in one of his aliveness videos: When Dan Inosanto wrote a book on the impractical training methods of traditional karate pretty much everybody in the JKD community agreed that they were ****.....then they went and started doing pencak silat, where it's the same ****.

    These people simply don't understand aliveness, they'll tell you that they do and they'll propably believe it themselves too, but they really don't understand. If they did, people like that Blackgrave character and that Romi or Remy or Romeo joker wouldn't have had any members in their clubs.
    Again, who are 'these' people? Inosanto's crew or FMA stylists as a whole?
  9. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    7/20/2010 7:48am

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    People are arguing because you have based your entire argument on videos. Now, if you traveled the world and experienced all these crappy gyms you'd have a point.

    Good lord please learn what political correctness means. It has nothing to do with generalizations. That's something that has been frowned on long before PC became a common term. Most groups I know sparred hard with or without sticks. DBMA did two things they showed what they did and they actually had huge gatherings. There is a huge thread somewhere about videos and FMA.
  10. physics_is_fun is offline

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    Posted On:
    7/21/2010 5:19pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've just read this thread and feel compelled to express my support for Ammar's point of view. Assuming everyone might have a knife is paranoid to the point of being ridiculous (unless you have reason to believe you are being targeted for assassination...) and you risk being knocked the **** out if you are not competent (i.e. spent all your time training FMA) at Western boxing (and elbows).

    People usually carry knifes to intimate others -- they want you to see it and decide against "boxing" them!

    Lots of people will read this thread and roll their eyes at the contortions you subjected Ammar to. Its biomechanical bullshido to think that FMA weapons techniques use efficient movements for unarmed strikes.

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