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  1. lklawson is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/31/2009 8:20pm


     Style: Bowie

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Goju - Joe View Post
    The weight and feel of a real saber or basket hilt sword is so different from a sport saber that I feel it's the least realistic
    Dueling sabers are closer but still different. The sport saber and other sport weapons were not intended, typically, to teach skills in Military Saber and Basket Hilted Broadsword. The Militaries of the time typically used Singlestick and/or blunted steel drills.

    The history of the three weapons of modern sport fencing more closely aligns with that of civilian weapons (though there was clearly and undeniably crossover and Maestros of civilian weapons often taught in the military).

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
  2. lklawson is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/31/2009 8:23pm


     Style: Bowie

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimnir69 View Post
    Full contact stick fighting is in no way similar to "realistic" sword fighting, since many fighters tend to take hits in order to deliver. The lack of edge make the techniques hard or even impossible to do. If done right a realistic sword fight should involve one or two hits, ending in less than five seconds.
    This is not right. Treating a sword simulator (i.e. "stick") as if it were a stick instead of a training tool for a sword during assault is what leads to bad habits.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
  3. lklawson is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/31/2009 8:28pm


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    Quote Originally Posted by kwan_dao View Post
    There are other examples where we acutally know that the person who wrote a manual most likely never even touched a sword for most of his life (because of beeing a priest/monk for example).
    I don't know what makes you think that. It was dirt common for aristocracy to join the ranks of the priesthood and not uncommon at all for knights to retire (or be forcibly retired) to the priesthood.

    It was also fairly common for priests and monks to be private tutors to the aristocracy and to be responsible for all aspects of their charge's education, including fighting.

    Quote Originally Posted by kwan_dao View Post
    you are kindly asked to provide proof or STFU.
    Perhaps it might be advisable to moderate the strength of your demand until after your other positions are realigned with with we know of history.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
  4. Goju - Joe is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/31/2009 10:59pm

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    from a strict military perspective the saber was a cavalry weapon so unless you're going to practice on a horse saber is pretty far removed from reality.
  5. Grimnir69 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/31/2009 11:56pm


     Style: HEMA

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    Quote Originally Posted by lklawson View Post
    This is not true. Original SCA "combat" was largely unrelated to historic martial skill however that was a long time ago and now there are a good number of folks in the SCA who are interested in scholarship and historic skills. These folks do study the relevant texts and participate in the larger WMA community. It is now quite common for SCA events to host workshops on HEMA.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
    Kirk, you are right. I shouldn't generalize really. I know there are SCA fighters who are interested in HEMA, but the majority still fight without any real concept of distance and edge alignment, don't you agree? At least from what I've seen. But there I go, generalizing again... :)

    After having talked a lot to the Swedish SCA-fighters regarding techniques and strategy my views are even more reinforced. But, this varies between SCA groups, I know and that is why I said "rarely". Still, their regulations for Heavy Combat are completely at odds with Hema fighting, I think.

    I am glad to hear this though, since I personally have been hoping to see more exchange between Hema, SCA and Reenactment. The group fighting strategies of the latter are interesting and especially the Russians and the Baltic states fight really hard with steel.

    Quote Originally Posted by lklawson View Post
    This is not right. Treating a sword simulator (i.e. "stick") as if it were a stick instead of a training tool for a sword during assault is what leads to bad habits.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
    Isn't that what I said? Perhaps you are not contradicting me, but agreeing with me, but think that sticks CAN be used? I have seen this both with SCA fighters and with Kendo fighters, although I am not saying that this is allowed in Kendo, our counted as "right". Bad Escrima also comes to mind. It is easier to take risks, and thereby getting hit, with a rattan stick.

    I still maintain that a weapon that lacks an edge makes it much more difficult to perform certain techniques. You can do the basic stuff of course, but not as well. But, I bet it can differ depending on what weapon you are simulating with a stick...

    Thanks for clarifying regarding Messers, btw! I did include a clip earlier of the one handed messer which shows what messer fighting is about.

    Great posts, btw! :)
    Last edited by Grimnir69; 9/01/2009 12:23am at .
  6. Grimnir69 is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/01/2009 1:08am


     Style: HEMA

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    As for Hema trying to distance it self from SCA and Reenactment I do believe that it is in general true, but there are of course exceptions and even some cross-breeding, especially with reenactors. But many Hema groups are working hard at establishing Hema as a proper MA in the minds of the public, rather than some form of reenactment which necessitates some distancing. This does in no way mean that our doors are closed to the members of those groups.

    But, like I said earlier, we are a ragged bunch with a lot of different agendas internally. :)

    SCA is also a bit schizo in the sense that their Fencing "branch" is decent, but the Heavy Combat has such a strict safety regulation regarding what is allowed and how the weapon's are constructed that it leave's little room for proper fighting. It gets highly sportified and this is especially apparent when "duelling". Perhaps it is the Fencing branch that takes a higher interest in Hema?

    If my view of SCA is outdated in to some extent incorrect, then I applogize. It is based on what I have seen and what I have learned from the Drachenwald community.
  7. Grimnir69 is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/01/2009 1:21am


     Style: HEMA

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goju - Joe View Post
    from a strict military perspective the saber was a cavalry weapon so unless you're going to practice on a horse saber is pretty far removed from reality.
    Ehm, so a cavalry soldier always fights on horse back an only needs to practice that? The military didn't quite have that view.
  8. Grimnir69 is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/01/2009 1:39am


     Style: HEMA

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dak View Post
    I also like the freeflowness of HEMA training as well as the research involved. very interesting.

    I will attend a HEMA session tomorrow then make my final decision.
    Good to hear! Those are two major parts of what I enjoy personally, apart from the actual training. I hope your group is as much fun as mine. And remember, everyone can contribute, as long as you put your soul into it. :)

    I mentioned it earlier, but take a look at the manuscript section of my site Hroarr.com It will give you an idea about what we use as a basis. I need to add more material, but there are other important changes and improvements that need to be done first.
  9. Grimnir69 is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/01/2009 4:41am


     Style: HEMA

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    Ehrrm, me again...

    Rereading the thread, I realized that you could interpret my posts as me thinking that Robert and Axel are average fighters that have improved a lot, when in fact they are amongst the Hema fighters I admire the most...

    Kwan_Dao, your posts acually reveal that you have very little knowledge about sword fighting, especially your remarks on much more force being needed for full contact sparring. For MMA and other unarmed sports with striking and kicking, it may be true that full force gets closer to the "real thing".

    But, Hema is a different cat completely... You have to remember that the majority (not all though) of the fighting we do emulates unarmed, duel fighting with sharps. Embedding your sword to the hilt and getting stuck in the spine with a forceful thrust will only leave you exposed to your opponent's friends and has no greater value than a shallow thrust wound. It takes surprisingly little to penetrate with a thrust. An unprotected body offers nearly no resistance what so ever. In fact some swords have been designed NOT to penetrate so deeply with a thrust for this particular reason. A couple of inches is quite enough, when placed right.

    With strikes, the cutting power is equally extreme. Too much force risks leaving your self open. Also, the whole basic concept for sword fighting is manipulating your opponents "weak" areas of the sword with your strong or if you have one, a shield, with various displacing techniques. This makes your attacking strength much less important.

    As mentioned before, there are even specific techniques how to handle fighters who use much force and expose them, like the mentioned schielhau vs buffalo cut.

    You really don't have to chop off limbs to immobilize an opponent. A cut can easily incapacitate or handicap your opponent and there are even techniques for slicing at close distance.

    Asking for more force in sword fighting is simply completely against what is at the core of sword fighting. It would most likely get you killed in a real fight against someone who is trained.

    In fact, if I would ever find myself in a real sword fight, which I hope I never will, I would likely target the hands first with a short quick strike or thrust. Coincidently, this is also the strategy many use in competitions, since it is highly effective.

    Oh, and an early remark from another poster mentioned that the wide longsword cuts would leave the swordsman an easy prey to a fencer who would pick him easily with a thrust. This is a tricky paragraph for so many reasons, but one comment I have to make about this, is that those temporary openings are usually in transition between strikes, which would often mean that the sports fencer would be whacked on the head a fraction of a second later. This may be OK with fencing, but not in Hema. Double hits are a big no-no and something we try to avoid. Also, leaving such openings are something we try to avoid and utilise when given the chance. The German term here is "nachreissen".

    The one area that we could use more force is with pommel strikes or regular punches and kicks. However, just as you have regulations that prevent certain injuries in MMA, we want to avoid certain injuries that would prevent us from practicing the actual sword fighting. Punching and kicking is simply not our primary focus.

    Polearms are problematic when sparring, due to them being so dangerous to practice with. We do spar with 3.5 pound bo staffs, but especially strikes are too dangerous to do with even moderate force. Still, I do believe that you can learn techniques that are valid and work. If nothing else, for the fact that similar techniques have developed in various parts of the world, without contact.

    Comparing different traditions and trying to validate their battle worthiness is complicated and not always "right", since many disciplines have developed in a specific context where they quite likely DID work. Rather than trying to mirror disciplines against each other, I think you should ask yourself if you think a trained practitioner of any discipline would stand a better chance in a fight than one who has no training. To be able to dismiss something as bullshido, you really have to have a grasp of the full context and content of specific discipline.

    It also seems as if I have to emphasize this. The Hema community hasn't sprung out of nothing. A large part have extensive backgrounds in karate, boxing, wrestling, fencing, iaido, kung-fu etc but have switched to Hema for various reasons, including the one that lies behind this whole site.

    We're not 13 year old LARPers trying to make something up in our backyards, but people who like to both fight and think and are actively reconstructing a largely forgotten system (although certain aspects have been kept alive through the centuries).

    I'll end this with a simple wish that you, Kwan_dao, would learn a bit more about what you are actually speaking of before making such strong and largely unsubstantiated or irrelevant remarks and telling people to STFU.
    Last edited by Grimnir69; 9/01/2009 4:58am at .
  10. lklawson is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/01/2009 7:43am


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    Quote Originally Posted by Goju - Joe View Post
    from a strict military perspective the saber was a cavalry weapon so unless you're going to practice on a horse saber is pretty far removed from reality.
    Then how do you explain Gaspard's Broadsword system? He doesn't even mention the word "horse" in his text much less show anything from horseback. Or what about the Highland Broadsword system?

    The Cav saber (in its many variations) is only one type of Military Sabre. There are plenty of sabers which were intended for military work but never intended for exclusive, or even predominantly, horseback use; the classic "Hanger" for instance.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
    Last edited by lklawson; 9/01/2009 7:53am at .
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