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  1. Grimnir69 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/31/2009 8:02am


     Style: HEMA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kwan_dao View Post
    You did not read a lot of posts on this website, did you? Especially those about myriads of EMAs (I guess you mean eastern martial arts by that?) beeing "bullshido" because they fail to provide proof for the validity of their teachings?

    And yes, I consider Kenjutsu and most styles of Kung-Fu as "not yet proven to be effective", as do most other people on this board afaik (I am a Kung-Fu practitioner btw). Maybe you ought to pull a number.

    I watched your sparring vids btw. In my opinion its just a fact that, while it is possible to spar in a somewhat realistic manner if you do boxing, it is impossible to do realistic sword or polearm sparring. The most realistic substitute IMHO would be full contact stick-fighting, like the Dog-Brothers do it. But even that is light-years away from going full force at each other with swords.

    I know of no martial art whatsoever, which is doing full contact sparring with weapons more dangerous then wooden sticks. Proof for such a martial art would yet have to be provided. Sorry, but the vids you posted do not show full contact sparring imho. Maybe I am too critical, but hey, this forum was made for critics after all.
    Nope, I haven't gone through all the posts here. I tend to stick with the WMA thread. It's just that I have heard these questions so many times before, even from SCA fighters who claim to fight "medieval"...

    To some degree I agree with you when you are saying that we can't fight with full force, but this doesn't affect the techniques. We fight with different types of weapons and protective gear which allows us to train different aspects. I do not call what we do "full contact sparring".

    SCA fighters who practices with rattan sticks also claim that you need to fight with full force, but they fail to understand the effects of using a sharp sword. A longsword can quite easily cut off both legs of an opponent in one strike. Speed and control is much more important than force. In fact, force can work against you, when the opponent uses proper techniques like a schielhau against a buffalo cut. Your force will expose you and leave you vulnerable.

    I simply don't agree that full force is the measure for judging the validity of a weaponed combat system.

    Full contact stick fighting is in no way similar to "realistic" sword fighting, since many fighters tend to take hits in order to deliver. The lack of edge make the techniques hard or even impossible to do. If done right a realistic sword fight should involve one or two hits, ending in less than five seconds.

    You seem much too focused on proving battle worthiness, way beyond what is reasonable. Do you also think the same for the European military sabre manuals, the pugilism manuals and other similar disciplines, which are also included in Hema? They were absolutely used for "real".

    I find it a bit silly that all weapon disciplines all over the world needs to prove their battle worthiness compared to unarmed disciplines. History should be enough. It is always easy to discard things you don't really understand or know much about. Only when you have learned something you can begin to see the validity of what you do. If you think otherwise, pick up a sword and put yourself in front of the ARMA guys fencing with federschwert in the clip I included earlier...

    BUT, I completely agree that EMA (yes, Eastern Martial Arts) contain some fluff, as do parts of later Hema. But, this is part of what we are constantly re-evaluating and strive to avoid.

    Hema still has a way to go, but we have come a long way. It will be great to see where we stand in another ten years.
    Last edited by Grimnir69; 8/31/2009 8:24am at .
  2. Grimnir69 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/31/2009 8:11am


     Style: HEMA

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goju - Joe View Post
    Couple things

    Also re the speed of a thrust vs a slash.

    It's like comparing a jab to a hook

    A thrust will get to it's target quicker because it's closer.

    A slash will be somewhat slower but do more damage i.e cut a limb off.

    There is a kendo vs fencer vid somewhere on youtube that shows the fencer getting the hit first but the kendoka getting a helmet smash hit seconds after the thrust.

    Fencer quicker, kendo slash more damaging.
    Well, that depends on what guard you are in and how you are holding your weapon and if you are using a one handed or a two-handed weapon, doesn't it? Single-handed yes, quite often, two handed, in general no.

    Speed also involves so much more; the actual speed of the attack, the time it takes to recognize the threat, the time it takes to figure out how to respond to the threat and finally the time it takes to perform the counter action. All these are involved in the mentioned clip of the kendo vs sports fencer. Not to mention the fact that they use different weapons with different weights.

    Similar weapons have to be used, preferrably also fighters with equal skills and of the same discipline.
  3. Grimnir69 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/31/2009 8:59am


     Style: HEMA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Another "small" clarification. The skills within and between the Hema clubs vary widely. However, this shouldn't reflect negatively on the combat arts form as it was originally intended.

    Still it is unavoidable that it does and this is where Hema needs to put a lot of work, forming the ranks and establishing a standard that can be easily identifiable by the "outside". The process is ongoing, but moves slowly, for different reasons.

    The Hema community is in many respects quite similar to the early skateboarding communities or the early Internet "Scenes" with graphics, programming, hacking, phreaking, and eventually pirating.

    The sense of freedom with few regulations, great comradery, sharing knowledge and skills for free etc in a rather small community, is in certain aspects quite the opposite of the eastern MA's. Most clubs have no ranks between members, only differing for practical reasons between beginners and more advanced members. Some clubs even have no member fees. There are no "masters" to bow to, only trainers of different skill levels. You have to be a member to understand the difference here.

    This is what appeals to many and is in part the cause of why we may seem like a ragged bunch of people...
  4. Grimnir69 is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/31/2009 10:03am


     Style: HEMA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Kwan_dao, judging from your posts, I believe what you are really asking for is the aspect of fearing bodily harm from "full contact". From what I understand most MMA fighters do not "feel" much of what is delivered to them, although it of course can hurt you.

    Likewise we actually do get hurt quite a lot. Being hit on the arms or the chest with about three pounds of steel or nylon can leave you quite bruised even when using moderate force, but unless the bones are fractured, you don't really think much about it. We have few real injuries, although broken fingers are not uncommon. Large bruises, some scars and hurting joints are quite common amongst certain practitioners.

    So, fear of harm is something you fairly quickly put aside.

    A real fight would of course be quite different, when you fear for your life or mutilation, but the whole point of most MMA's is to prepare you for a real fight, don't you agree?

    But, this thread has been side-tracked enough, so I will leave this topic now. Back to topic... I do believe the OP has had quite enough views from my side... :)
  5. Dak is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/31/2009 4:54pm


     Style: Boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I have a lot of veiws on both sides. all in all im torn.

    I like the idea of the incredible speed and range of a fencer, but I also like the history involved with the HEMA as well as the power with some of the weapons. I would most likely prefer longsword in the HEMA world.

    this is a tough decision. I may have to just toss a coin.
  6. Dak is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/31/2009 6:37pm


     Style: Boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I also like the freeflowness of HEMA training as well as the research involved. very interesting.

    I will attend a HEMA session tomorrow then make my final decision.
  7. lklawson is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/31/2009 7:57pm


     Style: Bowie

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimnir69 View Post
    grosse messer (big f-ing knife),
    The term "messer" literally means "knife" but a messer in the medieval german tradition is as much a "knife" as a cutlass or a machete is a "knife." The Messer was a single handed sword, primarily cutting and chopping. The "Gross Messer" was the same thing but with a longer blade and a two-handed grip. It was a two-handed sword and, in some ways, similar to the Tachi.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
  8. lklawson is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/31/2009 8:02pm


     Style: Bowie

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kwan_dao View Post
    Please refrain from posting such nonsense.

    All branches and flavours of HEMA are purely fictional.

    [snip]

    Its all good and fun, as long as the fact that HEMA MA's are reconstructed, aka "made up in recent times"

    [snip]

    What you (supposedly) learned was not made for killing,
    There's no doubt that these recorded techniques were intended to be deadly. Whether or not they actually were or whether or not you think they were is irrelevant to the fact that this was the intent.

    Further, reconstructed is not the same as "made up/fictional." The terms are not synonymous. The former has an external source but no "living lineage," the later does not.

    Additionally, there are living lineages in the western arts. Just because there doesn't seem to be any in, say, Longsword, doesn't mean that there aren't such. Western arts is a broad category, even the more specific HEMA designation is a broad category.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
  9. lklawson is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/31/2009 8:09pm


     Style: Bowie

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimnir69 View Post
    Proper Hema has no LARP connections either, nor any relations to SCA and usually not Reenactment either. In fact, Hema is generally working hard on distancing itself from those groups, since they rarely have any real knowledge of fighting skills in a historical context or swordsmanship.
    This is not true. Original SCA "combat" was largely unrelated to historic martial skill however that was a long time ago and now there are a good number of folks in the SCA who are interested in scholarship and historic skills. These folks do study the relevant texts and participate in the larger WMA community. It is now quite common for SCA events to host workshops on HEMA.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
  10. lklawson is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/31/2009 8:18pm


     Style: Bowie

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kwan_dao View Post
    The same can not be said about reconstructed weapon fighting. IMHO it is impossible to provide a save competition scenario, which is similar enough to actual armed combat.
    19th Century Militaries of all major powers from Britain to France to the U.S. disagree with you strongly here. It was quite common for them to use Singlestick as a training mechanism for Saber, Broadsword, and Cutlass. Your statement is at odds with history.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
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