Fencing or HEMA?

**Grimnir69** · Posted On: 9/03/2009 11:47pm

[quote=lklawson;2210784]

Originally Posted by Grimnir69

I see that you have my original Pepper saber manual from back when I just did a PDF of the raw scans. Why don't you go ahead and dl the one I have at my Lulu store? I've transcribed the text so it's searchable, converted the long S's, and digitally retouched the pics.

Provided that you don't charge for it or remove my foreword/notes it's all leagal.

Now, about those Sweedish sabre manuals, if I could get permission from the C holder, I'd love to work with you on an English translation repub.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk (from mobile)

I will certainly download that version instead! Thanks for the tip!

Regarding republishing the Sabre manuals, I don't think that would be a problem. I will check with our Sabre teacher. I wouldn't be surprised if he was already working on a translation. He has translated both Ringeck and the Hans Medel manuscripts. If not, I could make an attempt. The biggest problem would be the specific sabre terminology which I am unfamiliar with. Also, I am working on a spear fighting manual in preparation for a course I will be holding this winter. This takes a lot of my time right now.

Still, it would be fun to translate these, so I will consider this. :)

**lklawson** · Posted On: 9/04/2009 7:45am

Originally Posted by Grimnir69

Regarding republishing the Sabre manuals, I don't think that would be a problem. I will check with our Sabre teacher. I wouldn't be surprised if he was already working on a translation. He has translated both Ringeck and the Hans Medel manuscripts. If not, I could make an attempt. The biggest problem would be the specific sabre terminology which I am unfamiliar with. Also, I am working on a spear fighting manual in preparation for a course I will be holding this winter. This takes a lot of my time right now.

Still, it would be fun to translate these, so I will consider this. :)

Sounds like a good place to start.

Yeah, translating can be a real chore but, on the other hand, you usually get mad props for doing so.

I get a lot of personal satisfaction from my republishing hobby.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

**Goju - Joe** · Posted On: 9/04/2009 1:00pm

Originally Posted by lklawson

I enjoyed the very first duel, which was with sabers. The smallsword duel was decent entertainment. The saber duel in the basement (or whatever it was) I enjoyed the most. I hated the horse duel and found the rest of the movie extremely irritating. The main character has a girlfriend who just mysteriously drops out of the story line.

But, yeah, a few of the duels were entertaining. :)

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

What you don't like Harvey Keitel as a French Cavalry officer?!?

Seriosuly as a movie it's so so. The duels I thought were a very good representation of how those types of fights probably looked

**lklawson** · Posted On: 9/04/2009 3:21pm

Originally Posted by Goju - Joe

What you don't like Harvey Keitel as a French Cavalry officer?!?

I didn't like the story. It wasn't engaging. I couldn't identify with either of the characters and kept hoping that they'd kill each other in a double-touch or get simultaneously blown to smithereens by a Canister Shot bombardment.

Seriosuly as a movie it's so so. The duels I thought were a very good representation of how those types of fights probably looked

I agree. I just didn't enjoy the horse duel. The character kept flashing back in a failed attempt to build suspense. All it really did was irritate me and make me want the them to just GET ON WITH THE FREAKING DUEL.

From a realistic standpoint the horse duel was probably pretty close (at a guess) from an entertainment standpoint, it sucked. I don't usually watch movies for their realism, but I DO watch them for entertainment.

It was 2+ hours of boring irritation punctuated with about 15 min. of cool and interesting duels.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

**Capo Ferro** · Posted On: 10/12/2009 12:54pm

Hey Guys! I have now in my hands Czech translation of I.33 (One-thirtythree).

You know what I mean? The first manuscript written involving fencing. This one is a manual for fencing sword and buckler written 1295. Bloody good stuff!

It seems to me that lots of fencing teachers and masters are taking the core from I.33. One of the surprising fact is that in this book you can find difficult techniques that has been "founded" in renaissance by various masters. Quite lots of armbreaking, double guards, dissarming, counterattacks and many others.

Ehm... Well... HEMA, Class of it's own.

We are going to re-create it into readable stat with one of my friends. On thursday we are on it :-)

**Grimnir69** · Posted On: 10/12/2009 1:48pm

MS I.33 certainly is interesting, if nothing else for the fact that it is the earliest known European manuscript on medieval swordsmanship and pretty much the earliest European manuscript on martial arts. Also, it has illustrations of a woman, Walpurgis, fencing.

Btw, you can buy it in print, with English translation, here: Amazon.com: The Medieval Art of Swordsmanship: A Facsimile & Translation of Europe's Oldest Personal Combat Treatise, Ro Yal Armouries MS I.33 (Royal Armouries Monograph) (9781891448386): Jeffrey L. Forgeng: Books

The plates are online here: http://www.thearma.org/Manuals/i33/i33.htm

Another interesting aspect is that the old Georgian Khevsur fighters assume a similar stance when fighting.

Also, it might interest you to take a look at the book "Medieval and Renaissance Dagger Combat" by Jason Veil (Amazon.com: Medieval and Renaissance Dagger Combat (9781581605174): Jason Vail: Books). Many armlocks, disarmaments and blocks are easily compared to Asian techniques.

You can find a lot of interesting material on my site at www.hroarr.com and there are quite a few videos on YouTube. Search for Hammaborg, if MS I.33 interests you. http://www.youtube.com/user/tossetoke

Also, we at Gothenburg Historical Fencing School have an instructor that focuses on I.33 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-U-wAmiG1I

Great to hear that you will be working on I.33 Everyones thoughts and opinions are welcome. :)

Oh, and if sword and buckler is of specific interest to you, you could also look into the Bolognese tradition. http://www.youtube.com/user/swordsch.../9/oy3VNlRXnfc

Good luck with your exploration of and training in Hema!

**Grimnir69** · Posted On: 10/13/2009 3:38am

Oh, and this web documentary may give you a bit of perspective (at least one new perspective) on how medieval european fencing and modern fencing is connected and how it developed from it's martial origin, through mostly cavalry sabre into the sports fencing we mostly see today.

It is in ten parts though,and takes a bit of time to go through. It also doesn't really show Hema as it is today. Great documentary though.

YouTube - Renaissance Martial Arts - the Web Documentary: Part 1of10

**ogo** · Posted On: 4/08/2010 12:03pm

http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/idahosentinels/

Come and try us out...we meet every Sunday these days at Borah Park 11.00 till 12.30 and there's just two or three of us. We are not a 'sports fencing' outfit, we use weapons made of steel that strike hard and would if sharpened, penetrate cloth, canvas, leather. We use techniques from 1290ad till 1600ad from medieval fightbooks. We use sword and buckler also longswords, mainly technical with sparring only for those with enough armour. Can use 3 weapon fencing masks, jackets and gloves such as those for lacrosse. The footwork for medieval sword work is not linear, and many of our attacks work on lateral footwork, diagonal steps, and we can use trips, locks, kicks throws etc. Essentially, landing a fast flick or a coupe is not what we are about. WMA is about finishing the opponent. It's a different beast altogether and I'd recommend cross training in many weapons and martial arts...we can offer just two weapons and two perspectives....many blessings and hope the sports fencing goes well. Salle Boise is a great club!

**Dak** · Posted On: 4/08/2010 5:44pm

Hey, thanks for the information... Mr. Osborne I assume? Im currently finishing up High School and barely have time to do the MA i do, but I will certainly come check you guys out once I get done next month.

**lklawson** · Posted On: 4/08/2010 9:06pm

Originally Posted by ogo

[B][COLOR=#0060bf]WMA is about finishing the opponent. It's a different beast altogether

To you.

To others, WMA means different things. An old style Pugilist or a CaCC wrestler might have a difference of opinion about WMA being about "finishing the opponent."

:)

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk