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  1. NeilG is online now
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    Posted On:
    9/02/2009 2:39pm


     Style: Kendo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If the OP is still listening through all this dick-waving:

    What do you expect to get out of fencing or HEMA that you don't already get from kendo? Are you unhappy with kendo for one reason or another?
  2. Dak is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/02/2009 4:37pm


     Style: Boxing

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    Quote Originally Posted by NeilG View Post
    If the OP is still listening through all this dick-waving:

    What do you expect to get out of fencing or HEMA that you don't already get from kendo? Are you unhappy with kendo for one reason or another?
    I had quit Kendo after doing it for a year. I have been out of it for a few years. I quit because the formality wasnt really for me and the Bogu is just too damn expensive. that being said I really enjoyed learning what I did, keiko was fun, but all in all it just wasn't for me.

    Edit: never did get the hang of the foot stomp (fumi komi?). I could do it, but I telegraphed HARD.
  3. NeilG is online now
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    Posted On:
    9/02/2009 5:23pm


     Style: Kendo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm not sure fencing gear is a whole lot cheaper. But "just not for you" I get, lots of people just don't click with it. Were you with Stroud-sensei there?
  4. Dak is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/02/2009 5:40pm


     Style: Boxing

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    Quote Originally Posted by NeilG View Post
    I'm not sure fencing gear is a whole lot cheaper. But "just not for you" I get, lots of people just don't click with it. Were you with Stroud-sensei there?
    Yes I was. He, and the Atagi brothers (Ret and Ryan if I remember right) were my instructors. They are excellent teachers and I would reccomend them to anyone in the area wanting to learn kendo.
  5. Goju - Joe is offline
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    I am a Ninja bitches!! Deal with it

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    Posted On:
    9/02/2009 6:22pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Improv comedy

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by lklawson View Post
    A Military Saber IS a "Broadsword." Gaspard Le Marchant's "Broadsword" manual illustrates the Saber in every case.

    http://www.careyroots.com/broadsword.html

    This is common and shown in many other documents such as Miller's and the Hungarian Highland Broadsword repubbed by Mr. Valentine.
    It is in no way unique or specialized to Cavalry.


    Yup. But this is not specific to Cav. It has a lot more to do with the development of gunpowder than the (continued) development of Cavalry. Note that there were quite a number of Cav. Sabers which were STRAIGHT and NARROW, such as Patton's.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
    The saber being classified as a broadsword doesn't mean you can claisffy Broadsword as Saber - The Basket hilt sword that Cromwell and his round heads used in their Cavalry (which predates the saber) is not a saber.

    Do you see what I mean.

    Also while saber fencing was adopted and used for dueling and other un mounted attacks the saber WAS primarily and historically a Cavalry weapon


    The first mention of the sabre in print comes in Marcelli's manual (1686). Originally the heavy, curved, weapon with which the Household Cavalry is still equipped today, it became known in western Europe during the eighteenth century as a result of the contact with the Hungarian light horsemen (hussars) who had originally derived the weapon from the oriental scimitar of the Ottoman Turk.

    In the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries cavalrymen of all nations practiced sabre fencing. The French cavalry commander General Chablis commented:

    "The sabre is the cavalryman's science of survival"


    Much of modern sabre play is derived from its cavalry application, for example the target area, everything above an imaginary line across the hips known as the saddle line, as any attacks below this would hit horse. One unique feature of modern sabre fencing is that an off-target hit, will not stop the action as it would in foil fencing.
    http://www.uucfencing.co.uk/history/...abre/index.php

    and then there's wikipedia

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saber

    Again the saber was primarily used as a cavalry weapon.

    A lot of it's style of attack was for a horse man to strike and move on to the next target in a cavalry charge.

    The curving aspect was to help the sword not get stuck in the pesky peasants you were mowing down.

    My point is a lot of the attacks make the most sense from a mounted position.

    Again not that you had to be on a horse but besides Germans slashing scars in each others face it was mostly used for the Cavalry
  6. lklawson is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/02/2009 8:20pm


     Style: Bowie

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    Quote Originally Posted by Goju - Joe View Post
    The saber being classified as a broadsword doesn't mean you can claisffy Broadsword as Saber - The Basket hilt sword that Cromwell and his round heads used in their Cavalry (which predates the saber) is not a saber.

    Do you see what I mean.
    What it seems you are trying to say is that all slashing style Military Sabers are Broadswords but not all Broadswords are slashing style Military Sabers. Which I generally agree with.

    Also while saber fencing was adopted and used for dueling and other un mounted attacks the saber WAS primarily and historically a Cavalry weapon
    No. You can't go that far and be historically accurate. What you can say is that the slashing style Military Saber most likely, according to most scholars, migrated to the west as a Cav. sword. Though it remained a popular Cav. saber design it was not exclusively thus, sharing duty with the straight thrusting saber. From its entry point to western culture through the Cavalry the slashing style Military Saber quickly spread and was accepted, becoming common, in all military applications in the west, particularly with officers, ranging from foot officers through sea service.


    Much of modern sabre play is derived from its cavalry application, for example the target area, everything above an imaginary line across the hips known as the saddle line, as any attacks below this would hit horse. One unique feature of modern sabre fencing is that an off-target hit, will not stop the action as it would in foil fencing.
    Which is fine if you only look at modern sport saber as your defining evidence but quickly falls apart when you look at manuals for the instruction of Military Saber on foot, of which there are several. Apparently folks like John Gaspard Le Marchant were smart enough to realize that the leg was a target and taught drills for attacking and slipping the leg.

    The curving aspect was to help the sword not get stuck in the pesky peasants you were mowing down.
    The curving profile to maximize slashing was attractive because of the lack of ARMOUR which is directly attributable to advances in firearms.

    My point is a lot of the attacks make the most sense from a mounted position.
    When you're only looking at material from the Cav. tradition, yes. Otherwise you see leg slashes, leg slips, body shifts, foists, and the like. There's plenty of these in evidence when you expand your study to manuals intended for instruction for the Foot, such as Le Marchant, instead of that specifically intended for horse, like Pepper.

    Again not that you had to be on a horse but besides Germans slashing scars in each others face it was mostly used for the Cavalry
    Schlaeger is with the Dueling Saber, not the Military Saber.

    Look, I'm not denying that the Military Saber was used from Horse. Of course it was. What I'm saying is that your claim that "from a strict military perspective the saber was a cavalry weapon so unless you're going to practice on a horse saber is pretty far removed from reality" is quite simply wrong. Military Saber has a HUGE tradition of Foot, separate and apart from Horse, usage. And you're wanting to quibble at Gaspard's, and mine, of the term "Broadsword"???

    Dude, the Military Saber was used in all facets of the Military. To deny this is to deny mountains of historical evidence to the contrary.

    Peace favor your sword,
    Kirk
  7. kwan_dao is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/03/2009 1:43am


     Style: sambo, stuff

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    Quote Originally Posted by lklawson View Post
    No. You can't go that far and be historically accurate. What you can say is that the slashing style Military Saber most likely, according to most scholars, migrated to the west as a Cav. sword. Though it remained a popular Cav. saber design it was not exclusively thus, sharing duty with the straight thrusting saber. From its entry point to western culture through the Cavalry the slashing style Military Saber quickly spread and was accepted, becoming common, in all military applications in the west, particularly with officers, ranging from foot officers through sea service.
    ATM I am unable to come up with any example of sea-service officers carrying a saber. If you could provide a concrete example (which admirality/country, ship or unit maybe?) that would be very helpful. The naval officers weapons I know are "fancier" versions of the "Entermesser" as issued to the "Marineinfantrie" - the regular sea-service soldiers. A short and sturdy weapon with heavy blade, suitable for close-encounters and hacking through wood, sails and rigging.

    As for other military units, it should be noted that officers (everyone from "Leutnant" upwards) of the infantry and artillery at least in germany and austria were mounted. And thus equipped with a cavalry weapon.

    The lower ranks ("Feldwebel" and such) which would be called "Unteroffizier" in german were a bit of a mixup. To my best knowledge they only were equipped with sabers in units where the "Unteroffizier" was mounted as well. In the other units they typically carried a straight sidearm and (before the invention of revolvers or automatic pistols) a polearm. The latter beeing used to threaten (or consequently kill) soldiers who tried to desert the line.

    It is interesting to note as well, that prussian pioneer officers, who tended to be unmounted more often then not, wore a straight sword a bit similar to the medieval messer.

    Edit: Maybe I should add that I personally share Goju-Joe´s opinion on this matter. Actually thas is what I was referring to when I said that I think you (lklawson) were wrong about the saber-fencing education of european military acedemies.

    What I gathered from documents and talks with residential historians of two different academies, the fencing tuition at the military academies was all about mounted fighting. The official curriculae (?) did not contain education in unmounted saber-fencing afaik.

    There is a grey zone though. Because a) I did not conduct a real research into this topic, just happen to have picked up some information "on the sides" and b) there might still have been some kind of "survival" training for unmounted saber-fencing done privately, outside the official curriculum.

    It is perfectly possible they even used academy resources for that. Which might also be where the manuals originated. Kinda like some people sold inofficial steel harnesses or helmet enhancements to infantry soldiers during WWI.
    Last edited by kwan_dao; 9/03/2009 2:02am at .
  8. willaume is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/03/2009 3:36am


     Style: aikido, medieval fencing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hello
    well having given a few seminars under the French fencing federation,
    I found that there is much more in common between Olympic fencing and German long sword than I thought. Really the sprechfechten and the langen ort are nothing more using the longsword as if it was a two handed foils.

    All the Olympic fencers I have seen are very good with small sword; usually they can get around the hit first right of way relatively easily.

    About the sabre well we are going to be at it for a while
    It seems that their origins are indo-Persian via the Bulgaria and Poland with the Turkish kilij as the origin. The mameluk sabre that heavily influenced the French imperial light cavalry sabre is a descendant of the kilij.
    Now to be honest the border between some messer/falshion and some broad kilij are very very blurred.
    As well the word sabre has evolved through history and like pole weapons; the same name does not necessarily describe the same weapon according to the country.

    For example the flat French heavy cavalry sabre is called a latte in French and so is any straight blade sabre like the French artillery sabre.
    The curved light cavalry sabre and the broader and less curved infantry sabre are called sabre (de cavalerie et d’infanterie respectively)
    As you can see in English it is all called sabre.
    And the English cutlass is called sabre d’abordage in French.

    From a French stand point any curved blade, with or without significant had protection is called a sabre.
    This is not the case in English and I would not be surprised that it is different in any other countries.

    phil
  9. Grimnir69 is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/03/2009 4:05am


     Style: HEMA

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by willaume View Post
    Hello
    well having given a few seminars under the French fencing federation,
    I found that there is much more in common between Olympic fencing and German long sword than I thought. Really the sprechfechten and the langen ort are nothing more using the longsword as if it was a two handed foils.
    Partly I think you are correct here, but as I am sure you know, these are not primary guards and aren't used very much offensively.

    Sprechfenster, the "speaking window", is a way to feel your opponent's intentions by maintaining a bind, and counter with a suitable attack, either a strike, thrust or a cut, although I agree that a winden followed by a thrust or a short cut to the hands are the most common. This is also a bit similar to the closeness of Kendo fighters. But with the Liechtenauer tradition (can't really speak for Fiore), closeness is considered dangerous, since the closer you get, the less control you will have of your situation.

    The Langenort is basically a static, outreached point, where you try to keep the opponent at bay while retreating. It is also good for luring your opponent to try to krumphau your blade and then simply durchwechsel by slipping the point under his cut, letting the opponent "impale" himself on your point. The Langenort is also a transitory guard in various ober- and unterhaus, from which it is easy to slip into other thrust guards.

    So, to an extent I can see similaties here, in the sense that these two guards are fairly outreached and often are follow by thrusting. But, essentially, I really think there are few similarities between the bladework of sports fencing and Hema. Some certain mechanics, yes and only superficially a few positions.

    At least these are my understanding of these. I would love to hear you expand on your ideas though.
    Last edited by Grimnir69; 9/03/2009 4:19am at .
  10. lklawson is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/03/2009 8:08am


     Style: Bowie

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kwan_dao View Post
    ATM I am unable to come up with any example of sea-service officers carrying a saber. If you could provide a concrete example (which admirality/country, ship or unit maybe?) that would be very helpful.
    http://www.swordsales.eu/1800-Britis...ers-Sabre.html

    A short and sturdy weapon with heavy blade, suitable for close-encounters and hacking through wood, sails and rigging.
    I absolutely agree, 100% that this sort of sword is better suited to maritime combat. My point is not that Cutlasses were less effective or meritorious, but rather that the Military Saber was common and accepted in naval service. Heck, most Naval academies and Naval services still have ornamental sabers. The U.S. Marine Core Saber is considered a special mark of distinction but every one of the U.S. naval services have an ornamental saber, including the Coast Guard.

    Edit: Maybe I should add that I personally share Goju-Joe´s opinion on this matter. Actually thas is what I was referring to when I said that I think you (lklawson) were wrong about the saber-fencing education of european military acedemies.

    What I gathered from documents and talks with residential historians of two different academies, the fencing tuition at the military academies was all about mounted fighting. The official curriculae (?) did not contain education in unmounted saber-fencing afaik.

    There is a grey zone though. Because a) I did not conduct a real research into this topic, just happen to have picked up some information "on the sides" and b) there might still have been some kind of "survival" training for unmounted saber-fencing done privately, outside the official curriculum.
    Which is great and all but ignores the fact that there are a goodly number of Military Saber manuals specifically instructing in Foot combat and wholely ignoring mounted. I've mentioned three already that I am familiar with and linked to the one which is readily available online.

    Heck, even the U.S. Army Saber Manual 1907 dedicates the fully 80% of the manual to FOOT combat with the saber, saving a measly 3 or 4 pages for Mounted. This is interesting because the Preface specifies that the manual is supposed to "embrace" both foot and mounted.

    http://www.anesi.com/prsefs.htm


    It is perfectly possible they even used academy resources for that. Which might also be where the manuals originated. Kinda like some people sold inofficial steel harnesses or helmet enhancements to infantry soldiers during WWI.
    It could be, however, that doesn't fit with what I know of existing manuals dedicated to or including significant portions of foot combat with Military Saber.
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