Up a famous creek and my boat's sprung a leak...

**Vince Tortelli** · Posted On: 8/29/2009 5:09pm

(WARNING: Giant wall of text follows.)

I'm not sure if I'm putting this in the right forum, so moderators, feel free to move it around. I'm employed as a Corrections Officer at Lousiana State Penitentiary, and a couple of months ago I had what seemed like a good idea.

I'm really not a fan of LSP's approach to training "Defensive Tactics", which is X amount of hours while going through the training academy, plus a 3 hour supplemental required every year. Not really a fan of the system either, it's main virtue seems to be that the folks who put it togather will pay court costs, should a Use of Force incident turn into a litigious matter. (The system wasn't PPCT, but I can't recall the actual name off the top of my head, as soon as the instructor said "this is what you do when he grabs your wrist" I was /mentally/ running through a grassy field in my Pancrase trunks and boots, practicing rolling toe holds with Bas Rutten and Erik Paulson.)

After talking it over with a couple of guys who are on the Cell Entry Team, I decided to get permission for myself and my brother (who also does BJJ/NHB) to unlock the training academy after hours and use the mat space for some friendly rolling around and joint destruction, perhaps (if I could convince others to join me in putting up $) bring in more experienced martial artists from Baton Rouge and Lafayette for seminars.

Well, I sent my idea through the proper channels and wound up in a sit down with the Training Academy Committee...aaand the good ship Tortelli went down with all hands. The main arguements that sunk me were (I paraphrase in a sarcastic manner, the committee was very polite)

1. Will Rickson Gracie fork over to pay court costs if someone applies a deadly force armbar and the offender sues?

2. What someone new to grappling excitedly tries the heel hook they saw BJ Penn use in the UFC last night and snaps their fellow student's ankle, and then the heel hookee sues the State for millions of dollars? (Seeing a pattern here?)

I freely admit that part of my problem was not doing my homework and going into the meeting unprepared, a problem that I am trying to solve now. (Better late than never, right?) So...does anyone have any answers to the above two arguements?

**Knave** · Posted On: 8/30/2009 10:55am

Greetings.

Not really any answers to those. Liability is the number 1 primary motivation for ALL decisions in virtually all law enforcement agencies not run by Joe Arpaio.

Where is the mat space you're talking about using? LSP academy in Zachary, or is this at a corrections place? I know guys that used to roll at LSP a few years back, so unless something has changed administratively, I can't see why they would shoot you down unless you're talking about making it something organized rather than an informal meeting up of guys who are exercising.

**Lord Skeletor** · Posted On: 8/30/2009 3:25pm

Liability is going to kill you. You guys need to find an abandoned warehouse somewhere and bring your own mats. lol Otherwise...you'll never really be free of such hazards.

Also...BJJ might be different where you're from, but most of the time, we don't let white belts or beginners use foot/ankle locks or knee bars.
Only the more experienced (blue+) practitioners are allowed to use such locks.

**Vince Tortelli** · Posted On: 8/31/2009 5:57pm

Knave: I was hoping to use the David Knapps Academy which is on LSP grounds, a lot of Angola employees and their families live on site in the B-Line community, plus it would be convenient for anyone just getting off work who wanted to drop by in the evenings. (Unless they work on the night shift, of course.)

Lord Skeletor: The only foot/ankle locks in the story above were the ones I was dreaming about instead of paying attention in regular DT class (and yes, I am a blue, not sure about the + though), and the ones a hypothetical new guy might attempt after seeing an Imanari highlight on the Youtube. Obviously no one's going to teach heel hooks the first day, that's just asking to get walloped over the head by the lawsuit fairy.

The Knapps academy already has a full set of training mats and no one ever uses it after 3'o clock in the day, but you're probably right about it being an unattainable goal. We do have some unused buildings on the grounds, maybe I should look into fixing one up, or perhaps buying some grappling mats for the B-Line gymnasium.

**Deadmeat** · Posted On: 8/31/2009 6:34pm

why cant participants just sign a liability waiver?

**Vince Tortelli** · Posted On: 8/31/2009 6:58pm

Deadmeat: I actually drew up a liability waiver (okay, I copied the one they use at COACH JOSH's gym) and gave it to LSP's attorney to look over...and then the floodgates opened and a ridiculous number of new lawsuites were filed against the facility, requiring her to give up eating and sleeping for a few days and pushing my little scheme to the back burner, if not completely off the stove.

**Vince Tortelli** · Posted On: 8/31/2009 7:05pm

But enough of my whining and feeling sorry for myself. Anybody know where I can find good arguements in favor of MA training for LEOs? I'm willing to do my own shovel work, if someone could please tell me where to dig....

**Lord Skeletor** · Posted On: 9/01/2009 4:03pm

Originally Posted by Deadmeat

why cant participants just sign a liability waiver?

Because despite what most people might think...you (generally speaking) can't "sign away" your right to sue. A signed liability waiver looks good for you in court..but in the end, it's going to depend on the evidence and circumstances.

Originally Posted by Vince Tortelli

e.)

Lord Skeletor: The only foot/ankle locks in the story above were the ones I was dreaming about instead of paying attention in regular DT class (and yes, I am a blue, not sure about the + though), and the ones a hypothetical new guy might attempt after seeing an Imanari highlight on the Youtube. Obviously no one's going to teach heel hooks the first day, that's just asking to get walloped over the head by the lawsuit fairy.

What I meant by "Blue+" was a blue belt or higher (purple, brown, black). Not trying to invent a new rank of blue belt. lol

**Deadmeat** · Posted On: 9/01/2009 8:42pm

Originally Posted by Lord Skeletor

Because despite what most people might think...you (generally speaking) can't "sign away" your right to sue. A signed liability waiver looks good for you in court..but in the end, it's going to depend on the evidence and circumstances.

Absolutely. The point I was making was that a Waiver, qualified/competent participants, and controlled environment should = "reasonable precaution" or whatever the equivalent term is in the US.

Here in Aus, if you take due care and attention in setting up such a program, and ensure that participants sign a waiver, it's generally enough to demonstrate that you have acted "reasonably" which is all that's required under our law. Basically, people can still sue you, but if you've taken the above measures, they are pretty unlikely to be successful. I'd assumed the system was the same in the US.

**Vince Tortelli** · Posted On: 9/01/2009 8:43pm

That's why I'm talking to our lawyer, she thought the waivers were cool but wanted to look up some case law to back it up...and the ACLU helped approximately half the prison population file lawsuits against us and she became too busy to eat and sleep, let alone help me out. Thanks ACLU.

I even tried to get bullshido's own SAMUEL BROWNING to help, but he took one look at the Louisiana legal system (which, unlike other states, is governed by a Legal Code that includes charmingly archaic elements like the ability of the court to impose slavery as a punishment in a crimminal case ,) and told me I'd be better off driving prospective training partners across state lines to MS or TX to work out.