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  1. urasj is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/28/2009 1:13pm


     Style: Karate, Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by johnevans View Post
    The use of chi probably does, in my opinion, function in a way that is related to hypnosis. Keep in mind, however, that hypnotic interventions have been tested against placebos and other treatments for pain and have been found to be better than or comparable to most methods of pain management, and to exceed the effect of placebo. I suppose it could be argued that hypnosis works through a placebo effect, and that the effect is just GREATER than other forms of placebo (sugar pills, etc.).
    What kind of method/protocol did they use to test this?

    There has been some research on placebo where they found out that the bigger the fuzz about a placebo medication the bigger the placebo effect. Giving a sugar pill to a patient to sovle his problems and giving several sugar pills in a fancy bottle along with detailed info on when to take them gave extreme differences in the healing process.

    Whenever i hear of any scientific litterature about placebo im always worried that the control group didnt get as "well of a hypnosis" as the real placebo group. (THis being that the guy hypnotising would know it to be fake himself and maybe not put in so much effort into actually convincing the control group). Unfortunatly litterature with poor methodologies have often been used as "evidence" for quackery. Homeopathy/acupuncture use this trick often, although Im not so knowledable about hypnosis.


    EDIT: Typo
  2. johnevans is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/28/2009 3:37pm


     Style: Bas Rutten tapes

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by permahudef View Post
    Can you provide a reference for this?
    Or just the name a few big hypnosis pain researchers and I'll check out their work.
    Hilgard used to be the biggest hypnosis and pain researcher, a good review of his work is "Hypnosis in Relief of Pain" by Hilgard and Hilgard. A current researcher in the area is Patterson.

    It is true that some (or maybe even many) of the research studies performed on hypnosis have imperfect methodologies, but the same is true for almost any topic.

    Here are some references (sorry for the wierd fonts, I got lazy and just copied and pasted from the pdfs):

    -Jensen and Patterson,
    Journal of Behavioral Medicine, Vol. 29, No. 1, February 2006

    -THE EFFICACY OF HYPNOTIC ANALGESIA IN ADULTS:
    A REVIEW OF THE LITERATURE
    Brenda L. Stoelb, Ivan R. Molton, Mark P. Jensen and David R. Patterson
    Contemporary Hypnosis 24
    Contemp. Hypnosis 26(1): 2439 (2009)

    -Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology
    1992, Vol. 60, No. 5, 713-717
    Hypnosis for the Treatment of Burn Pain
    David R. Patterson et. al

    -Contemporary Hypnosis (1998)
    Vol. 15, No. 1, pp. 2233
    THE NATURE OF HYPNOTIC ANALGESIA:
    NEUROPHYSIOLOGICAL FOUNDATION AND EVIDENCE
    Helen J. Crawford, Timothy Knebel and Jennifer M.C. Vendemia
  3. johnevans is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/28/2009 3:44pm


     Style: Bas Rutten tapes

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I should also add that I have had a personal experience with hypnosis as well. During my hypnosis training we practiced on eachother. I have never had a profound hypnotic or trancelike experience, and I assumed that being "hypnotized" by my partner would not make much of a difference.

    We performed a common task used in pain research where we immersed our arms in ice water for as long as possible (the pain slowly builds and builds until you cannot take it anymore). In an initial trial I was able to keep my arm in the ice water for a little over a minute and a half, after which it simply became too painful. I rated the pain at about a 9 on a scale from 1-10.

    After a hypnotic induction (during which I felt perfectly normal, no feeling of being disembodied or in a trance or anything) I was instructed to imagine my pain taking the form of a different sensation (i.e. pressure). I was able to keep my hand submerged in the frozen water indefinitely and didn't experience much pain at all subjectively.

    This is a far from perfect example, experimentally at least, but it did demonstrate for me that some component of the "hypnotic" experience, whether it was distraction, selective attention, concentration, what have you, played a role in altering my subjective experience. Which was pretty cool.
  4. permahudef is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/30/2009 11:22am


     Style: BJJ/MuayThai/Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thanks!

    I'm currently printing off the 2009 review article.

    I know someone who uses the ice water/wine chiller for pain research. I used to swim in a frozen lake each May as the ice broke up. I asked "So, how how painful do people say the water is? How long do they keep their arms in it for? 20 minutes? half an hour? 45 minutes? I'm sure it would get achey after that much time or so..."
  5. NuclearFist is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/30/2009 12:34pm


     Style: Kempo/Kickboxing/BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Hypnosis?

    I dunno, but I CAN see some money-maker schools use it to the beginners.

    (swings watch in front of unsuspecting beginner's eyes) You will pay me money......lots and lots of money. When I say "Three", you will wake up, continue your training, and tell how it has left you in the best shape of your life and can harness the Chi when breaking bricks and teaching kids how to catch punches....for free. Obviously teaching is part of the 1000 a month contract you sign. .....Oh, THREE!"

    Penn and Teller need to cover topics like this on their "Bullshit!" show.
  6. bopinator is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/31/2009 5:46am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by johnevans View Post
    I should also add that I have had a personal experience with hypnosis as well. During my hypnosis training we practiced on eachother. I have never had a profound hypnotic or trancelike experience, and I assumed that being "hypnotized" by my partner would not make much of a difference.

    We performed a common task used in pain research where we immersed our arms in ice water for as long as possible (the pain slowly builds and builds until you cannot take it anymore). In an initial trial I was able to keep my arm in the ice water for a little over a minute and a half, after which it simply became too painful. I rated the pain at about a 9 on a scale from 1-10.

    After a hypnotic induction (during which I felt perfectly normal, no feeling of being disembodied or in a trance or anything) I was instructed to imagine my pain taking the form of a different sensation (i.e. pressure). I was able to keep my hand submerged in the frozen water indefinitely and didn't experience much pain at all subjectively.

    This is a far from perfect example, experimentally at least, but it did demonstrate for me that some component of the "hypnotic" experience, whether it was distraction, selective attention, concentration, what have you, played a role in altering my subjective experience. Which was pretty cool.
    Completely irrelevant...but I remember playign that game and having my arm in for a couple minutes under an hour, it was a bad idea, water at room temperature burnt for 10 mins.
  7. Coach Josh is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/31/2009 9:25am

    Business Class Supporting Member
     Gladiators Academy Lafayette, LA Style: Judo, MMA, White Trash JJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    We are using a guy for some fighters in our gym now and they are enjoying the sessions. The effectiveness from it is really in your mind's eye. I personally have not done it but will be giving it a shot soon.

    The guys who have done it all speak positive about it and like going so use that as your reference. We are putting 6-8 guys in a show a month and only losing 1 or 2 fights to decision. Our guys are rarely getting man handled and show some massive heart in all their fights. It has to do with our gym and the way we train but it goes to show how we are incorporating all aspects to help our fighters.
    Judo is only gentle for the guy on top.
  8. Eddie Hardon is online now

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    Posted On:
    9/01/2009 5:47am


     Style: Trad Ju Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Coach Josh View Post
    We are using a guy for some fighters in our gym now and they are enjoying the sessions. The effectiveness from it is really in your mind's eye. I personally have not done it but will be giving it a shot soon.

    The guys who have done it all speak positive about it and like going so use that as your reference. We are putting 6-8 guys in a show a month and only losing 1 or 2 fights to decision. Our guys are rarely getting man handled and show some massive heart in all their fights. It has to do with our gym and the way we train but it goes to show how we are incorporating all aspects to help our fighters.
    sorry to hitch a lift but I got an error message on my initial attempt to reply to the OP.

    just a couple of points:

    - the Shaolin Temple UK has a specific Meditation Class on their Timetable prior to commencing Preparation/Foundation. No, I don't train there so no opinion
    - Sensei John Van Weenan, UK Karate 8th Dan goes on at some lenght on his opinion of the merit of Hypnosis and believes that Sensei Kanazawa was self-hypnotizing before he demonstrated technique.
    - Steve Collins claimed training in Hypnosis before fighting (and beating) Chris Eubank but that was untrue and purely seeking a psychological edge.

    Thassit.
  9. turok is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/01/2009 10:16am


     Style: MT/SAMBO

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by johnevans View Post
    I should also add that I have had a personal experience with hypnosis as well. During my hypnosis training we practiced on eachother. I have never had a profound hypnotic or trancelike experience, and I assumed that being "hypnotized" by my partner would not make much of a difference.

    We performed a common task used in pain research where we immersed our arms in ice water for as long as possible (the pain slowly builds and builds until you cannot take it anymore). In an initial trial I was able to keep my arm in the ice water for a little over a minute and a half, after which it simply became too painful. I rated the pain at about a 9 on a scale from 1-10.

    After a hypnotic induction (during which I felt perfectly normal, no feeling of being disembodied or in a trance or anything) I was instructed to imagine my pain taking the form of a different sensation (i.e. pressure). I was able to keep my hand submerged in the frozen water indefinitely and didn't experience much pain at all subjectively.

    This is a far from perfect example, experimentally at least, but it did demonstrate for me that some component of the "hypnotic" experience, whether it was distraction, selective attention, concentration, what have you, played a role in altering my subjective experience. Which was pretty cool.

    So you basically focused and tricked your brain into thinking the pain is something else?

    I can do that without "hypnotism!" power of the brain ftw
  10. turok is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/01/2009 10:17am


     Style: MT/SAMBO

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't know if hypnotism works or not but some people tried to hypnotize me and It didn't work
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