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  1. Zaron Yeras is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/29/2004 8:15pm


     Style: BJJ/grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    leg/ankle locks

    What are the submissions which target the lower body which are dangerous? I know the heel hook is considered a hazard, but what other leg locks? Is a knee bar hazardous? An achilles ankle lock? etc.
  2. Deadpan Scientist is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/29/2004 8:26pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    define hazardous.
  3. ironMung. is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/29/2004 8:40pm


     Style: panatukan, bjj newb.

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm assuming hes talking about the positional risks. The position required for an achilles lock, figure four ankle lock and heel hook opens up the option for your opponent to execute the same moves. Whats worse is that some people are less susceptible to submit to those joint manipulations simply because their joints are tough enough to sustain the strain its being subjected to, its a gamble, but, sometimes well worth the try if its all you can get. I'm usually quite sucessful with those locks.

    However, the Knee bar is a different story. If executed correctly, you wont be in any position to be placed in a submission hold from your opponent. The closest thing is a rear naked choke, which your opponent will be reluctant to attempt since youll be placing heavy strain on his knee.

    hopes this helps.
  4. Zaron Yeras is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/29/2004 9:05pm


     Style: BJJ/grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    heh

    No, I guess I wasn't beign quite clear. What I meant by hazardous is submisisons that have a high rate of injury, that's why I mentioned the heel hook as an example. Sorry for being unclear.
  5. NorwoodBloke is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/29/2004 9:21pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    hazardous

    I think he means hazardous as in too dangerous to use in training and likely to cause injury.

    Knee bars can go on suddenly if you are being vicious but otherwise they're not that risky.

    Achilles locks aren't really dangerous unless the other guy rolls out and makes a heel hook by accident on the way out.

    Heel hooks are a bit of a hazard, but experienced guys will always tap given half a chance, before the damage happens.

    Figure four toe holds seem to vary. Mostly they're fine but every now and then people get a sketchy one, or at least that's my experience...
  6. The Wastrel is offline
    The Wastrel's Avatar

    Such as thou art, sometime was I.

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    Posted On:
    1/29/2004 9:34pm

    supporting member
     Style: Brazilian Jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Moved.
    Normally, I'd say I was grappling, but I was taking down and mounting people, and JFS has kindly informed us that takedowns and being mounted are neither grappling nor anti grappling, so I'm not sure what the **** I was doing. Maybe schroedinger's sparring, where it's neither grappling nor anti-grappling until somoene observes it and collapses the waveform, and then I RNC a cat to death.----fatherdog
  7. Strong Machine is offline

    Professional Fighter/Instructor

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    Posted On:
    1/30/2004 12:22am

    supporting member
     Style: Pro-Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The most dangerous are the heelhook(personally I think its most ugly when your left heel is under my roight armpit and rather than using my right wrist I use my left palm to grab your heel and twist) the figure four footlock is very dangerous when you bend the foot to the side rather than extend it straight back, the side puts the pressure on the meniscus which is tiny.
    The kneebar isnt so bad unless it is off to the side a bit and he has it under his armpit.
    Think of it like this, when you are doing a kneebar or an achillies lock you must first overpower the muscle before you can cause joint damage(kneebar-hamstring muscle/achillies-front head of the calf mucle, though some call shinlocks achillies locks and some call attacks of the ankle to be ankle locks...but i digress cause it gets confusing....)
    Oddly a leg lonck that is CRAZY painful is the deathlock, which is the one where I have your right ankle under my right armpit and you cross over your ankle with your left ankle so as to prevent the heelhook, so I get your left foot under my right armpit and hook my right wristbone into your right achillies.This sucks cause it drives your own shin into your calf muscle.But as much as it hurts, you can hold a guy there and torture him for minutes, then when you let go he is fine, no surgery....of course he probably ain;t running any marathons for awhile.
  8. Zaron Yeras is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/30/2004 6:02am


     Style: BJJ/grappling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    heh

    It's funny that I'd be moved to the technique section, since I asked for a technique section before there was one, and now that I got what I want, I didn't post in it. :)
  9. Strong Machine is offline

    Professional Fighter/Instructor

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    Posted On:
    1/31/2004 1:06am

    supporting member
     Style: Pro-Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yeah, figure four shinlock is pretty descriptive, but it isn' perfect, because if the legs cross low it is an attack on the achilies and not the shin.And even if it IS the shin, it is the calve thats in pain.
    Also...(now we're really getting into semantics)....In this move you either go palm to palm(master grip) on you grab the back of your own wrist.I mean in a figure four there should be a shape looking like a 4.There is in a paintbrush, and there is in a footfold(figure fourfootlok)...these are figure fours because in grabbing your own wrist the arm position looks like a 4.
    It has bothered me for a long time that there isn't a consistent language to grappling.It is so confusing I hear brazilians using japanese words and japanese using portuguese words.Most the americans I know say "kimura" because SOME brazilians use that word.Meanwhile MOST brazilians say "americana" which few americans use.And in japan they dont say "kimura" they say "ude garami" or they translate and say "entangled armlock" but so few americans say that that we don't understand.
    Me? I say "monkey paw".
    When I say "keylock" I'm talking about something else.
    Forget the Grapplers Notebook, we need a grapplers DICTIONARY.
  10. Crapfestival is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/04/2004 11:18am


     Style: Im a Lover, not a fighter

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    All leg attacks can hurt you bad, plain and simple. Lots of small bones in the foot and ankle, and you can always twist the wrong way and injure yourself. In an armlock, the attacker is applying all of the pressure and has control. For a leglock, the defender can accidently add pressure themselves, which is why people get hurt. Think about it...

    Hell hook... twist the wrong way and you are done.

    Figure four toe hold... try to straighten real hard as they are bringing your toes to your ass, and youre done.

    Thats my short version.
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