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  1. Kentucky Fried Chokin is offline
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    Portrait of a BJJer as a Young Man

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    Posted On:
    8/17/2009 7:39pm

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     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    My BJJ mind fails to understand Judo pinning strategy

    So lately I've been taking some Judo classes at a local Judo school. Before that, I had only been taking Judo privates to learn takedowns to supplement my standing up game. So this has been my first exposure to Judo newaza. I was happy to see that all the Judo players were excited to to roll with me, knowing I'm a ground specialist. One of the main focuses of the newaza was the pin. Something I've never done before, and it somewhat confused me.

    Whenever we would do pins, we always did that crappy scarfhold (can't remember japanese names) where we grab around the head. I could never understand why. It's the most **** position ever. I couldn't understand why they don't use a cross body side control or at least underhook the far arm. They also had a habit of grabbing this position and just holding onto it for dear life rather than staying fluid and transitioning to other positions as the opponent attempts to defend them, which wastes a lot of energy.

    Not wanting the be the BJJ ass, I didn't bring it up, thinking I would find out during rolling. So, during newaza randori, I let one of the black belts pass my guard and get that scarfhold on me. I reverse him and he went up and over just as easy as any BJJ white belt. I thought that they might have some secret knowledge of this position of causes them to use it so much, but I guess not.

    One of my theories is that, because they're not allowed push on the face, they can't use shoulder pressure to secure the cross body position, and that the hold on to that scarfhold position for dear life because it's like squeezing a submission: if you can hold on to it, you'll win. But really, this just makes it easier to roll them and I still don't know why they don't underhook that far arm.

    I was going to ask all this to them in my last couple days there (leaving town), but my knee started bothering me and decided to skip class rather than risk injury.
  2. Kentucky Fried Chokin is offline
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    Portrait of a BJJer as a Young Man

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    Posted On:
    8/17/2009 7:42pm

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     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I would like to one day do a Judo tourny, and I would like to actually use a Judo strategy. Not just pull guard.
  3. Nefron is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/17/2009 8:31pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    IMO its because that is the position you will easily get after a successful throw.I mostly land in that position when I throw somebody.

    Also, you get points for a pin so why risk that position trying to go for a sub or something else.

    BTW its called Kesa Gatame.
    Last edited by Nefron; 8/17/2009 8:39pm at .
  4. Beorn is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/17/2009 8:54pm


     Style: TKD, judo, MT noob

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    to underhook the far arm in kesa gatame would extend your center of gravity too far across their's and make you easier to roll. In a good kesa your legs are almost like an anchor that just weighs the two of you down and tires out the person on bottom until you are ready to submit someone, which is actually very easy from that position. There are armbars, ude garames, and shoulder locks.

    also, **** that message that tells me I need to post
  5. Ming Loyalist is offline
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    solves problems with violence

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    Posted On:
    8/17/2009 9:00pm

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     Style: Judo, Hung Family Boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    i'm trying to get used to it myself, but also most of my grappling has been no-gi, so that adds a lot to the equation as well.

    i am looking forward to some of the replies from the serious judoka on this forum.
    "Face punches are an essential character building part of a martial art. You don't truly love your children unless you allow them to get punched in the face." - chi-conspiricy
    "When I was a little boy, I had a sailor suit, but it didn't mean I was in the Navy." - Mtripp on the subject of a 5 year old karate black belt
    "Without actual qualifications to be a Zen teacher, your instructor is just another roundeye raping Asian culture for a buck." - Errant108
    "Seriously, who gives a **** what you or Errant think? You're Asian males, everyone just ignores you, unless you're in a krotty movie." - new2bjj
  6. 1point2 is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/17/2009 9:03pm

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     Style: 剛 and 柔

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't think the Shoulder Pressure Hypothesis holds water. My sensei also advocates getting the far-side underhook for kuzure-kesa-gatame (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuzure_kesa_gatame) as superior to the basic head-wrap method. Everything else jives with my experience, including frustration at the anti-fluidity strategy (see training log). I'd also really like to see your writeup/video of trying a judo tourney with the goal of throwing.

    My dojo has a heavy emphasis on pinning transitions/pinning combinations, which is slightly better than advocating holding a single pin. But this usually means that the brown belts just explosively pass my shitty guard and wait wait wait wait wait wait wait in a variety of holds.

    There's a nice parallel between the attitudes: I get frustrated that they just pin me for five minutes without a sub, and they get frustrated when I reguard. Everyone's happy when I take their back, though, so I guess that's a plus.
    What a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable. -Xenophon's Socrates
  7. Coach Josh is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/17/2009 9:20pm

    Business Class Supporting Member
     Gladiators Academy Lafayette, LA Style: Judo, MMA, White Trash JJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    They are doing it wrong pins are not a static position and they are just too lazy. Pinning and the ippon are just tactical advantages that in the past have lead to wins. As far as the hand around the collar Judo players have just put the emphasis on the pin to get the win. It's just the intricases of the submission game have fallen away due to being able to win with a pin. I am having a great time adding more submissions to my game fro
    positions I already do from Judo.

    The shoulder in the face is just fine. You are not allowed to put your hands in the face. If touchng the face was totally illegal then jujigatame would be banned as well as kamishihogatame, north south position.
    Judo is only gentle for the guy on top.
  8. Kentucky Fried Chokin is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/17/2009 9:27pm

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     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    to underhook the far arm in kesa gatame would extend your center of gravity too far across their's and make you easier to roll. In a good kesa your legs are almost like an anchor that just weighs the two of you down and tires out the person on bottom until you are ready to submit someone, which is actually very easy from that position. There are armbars, ude garames, and shoulder locks.

    also, **** that message that tells me I need to post
    I realize that you can get rolled either way, but I've never had that problem underhooking the far arm. Only when I reach around the head. Then again, I never hold on to it for dear life, even as I'm getting reversed. Plus, when you reach around the head, you risk getting your back taken.

    I don't think the Shoulder Pressure Hypothesis holds water. My sensei also advocates getting the far-side underhook for kuzure-kesa-gatame (
    Wikipedia (Links)
    Kuzure_kesa_gatame
    ) as superior to the basic head-wrap method. Everything else jives with my experience, including frustration at the anti-fluidity strategy (see training log).
    Well ****. Then why don't they just pull out the far lapel and feed it to the hand around the head for some serious shoulder pressure. I would have thought that would be a popluar one.

    I'd also really like to see your writeup/video of trying a judo tourney with the goal of throwing.
    It's really more one of those 'one day I'm going to do that' type thing like fighting MMA. I'm preparing to compete in Judo anytime soon. I need to do a lot more competing in BJJ first.

    i am looking forward to some of the replies from the serious judoka on this forum.
    That's what I'm starting to think. This simple question doesn't seem to be as simple as I thought.
  9. Kentucky Fried Chokin is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/17/2009 9:30pm

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     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Nefron View Post
    IMO its because that is the position you will easily get after a successful throw.I mostly land in that position when I throw somebody.
    Somehow I completely missed you post.

    That's a really good point. I end up there when I go into head and arm, but I always switch right away to cross side, then back to a sit out twoards the head with an underhook on the far arm.

    Also, you get points for a pin so why risk that position trying to go for a sub or something else.
    But still. Why not try to pin from a more secure position?
  10. 1point2 is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/17/2009 9:37pm

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     Style: 剛 and 柔

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    What I see is a lot of brown and black belt judoka going for monster-brute-force pins because that's what works. The ippon is calling them for 25 seconds in the hold, and in class, their partners don't have the BJJ level escape skills (sorry, it's true). Holding someone was also part of the original philosophy of judo, borrowed from wrestling I believe (citation needed). It was certainly part of the core of judo groundwork, and seen as a finishing position ("I have bested you by holding you here") rather than the BJJ mindset, where a hold is considered an attack platform.
    What a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable. -Xenophon's Socrates
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