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  1. Epeeist is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/28/2011 9:50pm


     Style: Kyokushin/Capoeira

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by tinwhistler View Post
    self-induced... Using biofeedback techniques, you can change a number of bodily functions including heart rate and blood pressure. Is it so far off to imagine that the students who honestly believed in the 'power' had some alteration of their body functioning?

    Hell, a good spook gets my adrenaline going and my heart pumping, and nobody has to touch me, either. But there's nothing mystical about it.
    That's sort of what I was getting at with the comparison to stage hypnotism trickery. It's just hard to believe someone can be so entranced by this in the MA world. Any idea how some no touch ko guys perform it through a sheet with no visibility between master and student? Some sort of secret communication or non visual, non tactile way of letting the student when to know to fall down?
    Last edited by Epeeist; 4/28/2011 9:56pm at .
  2. tinwhistler is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/28/2011 9:54pm


     Style: eclectic kung fu some BJJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Epeeist View Post
    It's just hard to believe someone can be so entranced by this in the MA world.
    People can get suckered by bullshit in any world. If the MA world was any exception, there wouldn't be so many mcdojos thriving out there.
  3. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/28/2011 9:56pm

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     Style: Bartitsu

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    Quote Originally Posted by tinwhistler View Post
    self-induced... Using biofeedback techniques, you can change a number of bodily functions including heart rate and blood pressure. Is it so far off to imagine that the students who honestly believed in the 'power' had some alteration of their body functioning brought about by their own subconscious expectations?

    Hell, a good spook gets my adrenaline going and my heart pumping, and nobody has to touch me, either. But there's nothing mystical about it.
    Yep - the more I study the "no-contact fighting" phenomenon, the more it seems that it's a combination of conscious and subconscious factors; the ideomotor effect, suggestion, social compliance, genuine skill, etc. - crystallized into a dramatic physical form.
  4. Conde Koma is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/28/2011 9:58pm

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     Style: Judo,MT,Boxing,BJJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by tinwhistler View Post
    self-induced... Using biofeedback techniques, you can change a number of bodily functions including heart rate and blood pressure. Is it so far off to imagine that the students who honestly believed in the 'power' had some alteration of their body functioning brought about by their own subconscious expectations?
    this is the big key here. in fact, i came across a pretty fascinating article about the effect the brain can have on the body, even without real physical stimuli.

    http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2...a_fact_gawande

    and here's a related quick talk on the placebo effect, which is essentially what's going on in these no-touch demonstrations:

    Fight Film Friday
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  5. Epeeist is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/28/2011 9:59pm


     Style: Kyokushin/Capoeira

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    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    Yep - the more I study the "no-contact fighting" phenomenon, the more it seems that it's a combination of conscious and subconscious factors; the ideomotor effect, suggestion, social compliance, genuine skill, etc. - crystallized into a dramatic physical form.
    I'm reminded of an 1800s account of a weak and frail ten year old girl who would astound people in the following way: a large man would be invited up on stage to sit in a chair and told to sit as firmly and strongly as he could and plant all of his weight. amazingly, this girl grabbed the chair and shook him around with ease due to the powers of "magnetism." In reality, the trick works because when someone is told to sit firmly they tend to plant their feet and put their weight forward. If they just relax normally and put their weight back naturally, they are harder to move.
  6. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/28/2011 10:17pm

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    The "Georgia Magnets" used many similar techniques - some of them were very clever applications of leverage and psychology. You should read the E.W. Barton-Wright article I linked to an earlier post - he explained the physics and mechanics behind those stunts.
  7. Epeeist is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/28/2011 10:20pm


     Style: Kyokushin/Capoeira

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    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    The "Georgia Magnets" used many similar techniques - some of them were very clever applications of leverage and psychology. You should read the E.W. Barton-Wright article I linked to an earlier post - he explained the physics and mechanics behind those stunts.
    Reading it now. Would you happen to be familiar at all with Harry Houdini's work in debunking seances and the popular Spiritism of his day?
  8. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/28/2011 10:28pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Epeeist View Post
    Reading it now. Would you happen to be familiar at all with Harry Houdini's work in debunking seances and the popular Spiritism of his day?
    I'm deeply familiar with Houdini and his work in that area - he's always been kind of a personal hero of mine.
  9. Epeeist is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/28/2011 11:08pm


     Style: Kyokushin/Capoeira

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    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    I'm deeply familiar with Houdini and his work in that area - he's always been kind of a personal hero of mine.
    Part of the reason I got into magic was debunking frauds and tricksters, in addition to entertaining peoiple and finding it a fun and challenging skill that required lots of practice. I have no problem with religious belief and am myself religious. I DO have a problem with exploiting peoples' suffering or telling people they can talk to their father again for $1000 and that's one thing I admire about people like Houdini.
  10. Bluto Blutarsky is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/29/2011 3:30pm


     Style: Mostly drinking. E-chaun

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    thats a key difference between magic and such charlatans,

    one is used for and intended for entertainment, the other for abuse.

    this "no contact fighting" could be for entertainment value too if the power rangers was still around and popular amongst kids, these guys could be the actors that does those fight scenes.

    (im trying to avoid comedic references to make a joke out of what they are doing and using what they do do in a constructive way).

    or in theatre or those demonstration shows that they do with live and semi-skilled actors at various county fairs and stuff. they could make a story and "rescue the princess" while fighting the evil ninjas or something.

    if this was billed purely for entertainment would people be critical of it?
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