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  1. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/14/2009 8:25am

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     Style: xingyi

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Approval and a weird sense of respect. I remember letting the head instructor, before I quit, use pressure points.

    When I quit I realized yeah they hurt but, not to the over exaggerated demonstrative actions I and other pull.
  2. Yoj is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/14/2009 8:29am


     Style: Aikijujutsu

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    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    Social compliance FTW?
    Kind of, you make the old man look like an idiot and you are not going to be popular, so they conform.
  3. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/14/2009 8:37am

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     Style: Bartitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    Approval and a weird sense of respect. I remember letting the head instructor, before I quit, use pressure points.

    When I quit I realized yeah they hurt but, not to the over exaggerated demonstrative actions I and other pull.
    Before you quit, were you seriously aware of "selling" the pressure point techniques?

    I remember doing a TKD/HKD demo. when I was a teenager. It was a choreographed display for a street festival or something. My role was to grab the instructor (who really was a skilled fighter) from behind and get shoulder-thrown. He screwed up the timing and I recall deliberately throwing myself over his shoulder. It was a split-second decision, IIRC based partly on not wanting my teacher to look foolish and partly on the muscle-memory of being thrown as we'd rehearsed the demo.

    Edited to add: the fact that I had a predetermined role to play, as "the attacker/bad guy", may have been very significant.
    Last edited by DdlR; 8/14/2009 8:48am at .
  4. Tom .C is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/14/2009 8:38am

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     Style: Aikido,Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    No problem, but for the record, this isn't style vs. style; I'm interested in the mind-and-muscle phenomenon itself, especially as it manifests in "internal" MAs, but also in hypnosis demos, faith healing, (rarely) in competitive sports, etc.

    One guy gestures, the other guy acts like he's been hit or thrown; why?
    I didn't mean it like that. I was hoping to hear your ideas about something that seems to be an occurence both styles. Any insight you could give is appreciated. I have seen things and would like to understand them, even if it is parlor tricks, magic, hypnosis, or strange gravitational fields adjacent to wise masters.
  5. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/14/2009 8:45am

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     Style: Bartitsu

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoj View Post
    Kind of, you make the old man look like an idiot and you are not going to be popular, so they conform.
    I think that's part of it, but also that the conditioning goes deeper than that, into things like muscle memory. I also think that Ueshiba was really good at what he did, both physically and psychologically (note, that doesn't mean that he could do this against someone who hadn't been conditioned, but likewise, I don't think that was what this type of training was for.)
  6. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/14/2009 8:46am

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     Style: Bartitsu

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom .C View Post
    I didn't mean it like that. I was hoping to hear your ideas about something that seems to be an occurence both styles. Any insight you could give is appreciated. I have seen things and would like to understand them, even if it is parlor tricks, magic, hypnosis, or strange gravitational fields adjacent to wise masters.
    Have you ever heard of the Georgia Magnet?
  7. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/14/2009 8:52am

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    Quote Originally Posted by DdlR View Post
    Before you quit, were you seriously aware of "selling" the pressure point techniques?
    Yes and no.


    I remember doing a TKD/HKD demo. when I was a teenager. It was a choreographed display for a street festival or something. My role was to grab the instructor (who really was a skilled fighter) from behind and get shoulder-thrown. He screwed up the timing and I recall deliberately throwing myself over his shoulder. It was a split-second decision, IIRC based partly on not wanting my teacher to look foolish and partly on the muscle-memory of being thrown as we'd rehearsed the demo.
    Similar to this explanation. I actually remember "chi" shooting into the pressure point. Really, it was manipulation of blood flow similar to a dead leg strike not chi.


    Edited to add: the fact that I had a predetermined role to play, as "the attacker/bad guy", may have been very significant.
    Exactly.
  8. DdlR is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/14/2009 8:56am

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     Style: Bartitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Re. social compliance and obeying authority, I strongly recommend British hypnotist Derren Brown's re-enactment of the Milgram Experiment:

    YouTube - The Milgram Experiment (Derren Brown) Hypnosis

    And here is Brown applying fundamentally similar techniques in a martial arts setting, with a demo. of no-contact hitting:

    YouTube - Derren Brown - One Inch Punch - Kung Fu - NLP

    Note that Brown, like Ueshiba, is a master at what he does; he's also an arch-skeptic of anything supernatural who frequently uses his skills to demonstrate human gullibility, etc.
  9. Da Pope is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/14/2009 9:02am


     Style: Nin Chun

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I remember a WC teacher comming over from HK. I remember chi sao-ing with him and hitting him smack in the jaw.

    Afterwards I was told I had no respect!!!!

    mmmmmmmm

    I go with some kinda institutionalised hyponosis but am liking the localised gravitational disturbances theory as well.
  10. 1point2 is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/14/2009 9:10am

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     Style: 剛 and 柔

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think at the beginning it's a desire to make the demo look good. In judo kata, or when the instructor is teaching, you take the fall. You don't throw yourself or go nuts, but you let yourself get thrown.

    If this attitude is propogated in partner work or what-they-call a "real attack" as well as during instruction and kata, then you start to see mission creep.

    First you don't resist.

    Then you help the throw a little, to make it clean.

    After a while you learn to throw yourself, because when you don't, you piss people off and maybe he'll re-do the technique, but add a groin slap you didn't expect.

    Then you start gesticulating wildly whenever he touches you. If you don't, abra cadabra, you don't get picked for demos or special instruction. Or he picks you for the demos of "pressure points" that involve you turning around and closing your eyes and he punches you in the jaw (true story).

    Eventually, you know well enough to flip over when he moves his arm. If not, he'll do the wristlock HARD next time, and won't let you ukemi out of it. This is documented in Angry White Pyjamas, for Yoshinkan aikido.

    If the teacher continues to push the issue, and has the charisma, he can turn this into chi blasts and 10'-distance knockouts.

    It started as social pressure and willingness to help. It became hypnosis and ingrained behavior. Remember the experiment with monkeys that get shocked if they touch the bananas? Slowly replace all the monkeys, and remove the shock, and voila--a room full of monkeys that refuse to come near the bananas, with no idea why.
    What a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable. -Xenophon's Socrates
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