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  1. Evil Solvalou is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/11/2009 5:57am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    WTF Competition: Credit where credit is due?

    Don't kill me yet, at least wait until this goes to Trollshido first.

    In another thread, while debating with VoleSitar about the merits of point-sparring, I mentioned this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Evil Solvalou View Post
    Look at what the most respected styles have in common, despite all their rule differences they have at least two things in common: they're all full contact and they're all continuous.
    You don't have to agree with that, it isn't the focus of this thread. Anyway, RabbitViola responded with this:

    Quote Originally Posted by foxguitar View Post
    So then according to your standards olympic style taekwondo fits thats its full contact and continous.
    So I looked up the Taekwondo article on Wikipedia to check their rules, and from what I've read that seems to be a pretty accurate description:

    Quote Originally Posted by [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taekwondo]Taekwondo[/url]
    WTF

    Under WTF (World Taekwondo Federation) and Olympic rules, sparring is a full-contact event and takes place between two competitors in an area measuring 10 meters square. Each match consists of three semi-continuous rounds of contact with rest between rounds. 14-17 and 18 and over black belt fighters fight in 2-minute rounds with a one minute break. Points are awarded for permitted, accurate, and powerful techniques to the legal scoring areas; light contact to a scoring area does not score any points. In most competitions, points are awarded by four corner judges using electronic scoring tallies. However, several A-Class tournaments are now trying out electronic scoring equipment contained within body protectors, thus eliminating the need for corner judges. Recent controversy concerning judging decisions has prompted this to an extent, but this technology is still not universally preferred. A kick or punch that makes contact with the opponent's hogu (The body guard that functions as a scoring target) scores one point; a kick to the head scores two points. Valid attacks that knock an opponent down are awarded an extra point. Punches to the head are not allowed. If a competitor is knocked down by a scoring technique and the referee counts down, then an additional point is awarded to the opponent.

    At the end of three rounds, the competitor with the most points wins the match. In the event of a tie at the end of three rounds, a fourth "sudden death" overtime round will be held to determine the winner after a one minute rest period.

    Until 2008, if one competitor gains a 7-point lead over the other, or if one competitor reaches a total of 12 points, then that competitor was immediately declared the winner and the match ended. These rules were abolished by the WTF at the start of 2009.

    Blows are full force and if one player is knocked out by a legal attack, the attacker is declared the winner as the WTF allows knockouts in sparring competition. But there are certain rules that they must follow. Some rules condemn name calling, punches to the head, grabbing, and more.
    Before I go any further let me just say that I'm not sure what semi-continuous means, but from what I gather from that description I'm guessing it means they stop if there is a foul or someone falls and such.

    From that it seems to fit my basic criteria of what makes for a competition format that could train a person to fight effectively. They are of course massively let down by keeping their hands by their sides, bouncing around like a superball and wearing more armour than a medieval knight.

    To get to the point; does this mean that for the average person who isn't quite cut out for the better styles like Boxing and Judo and who wants some rudimentary fighting skills, fitness and competition, pussies like myself for example, that TKD could provide a reasonable compromise?

    You may now begin the arse rapeage.
  2. Lindz is online now

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    Posted On:
    8/11/2009 6:13am

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     Style: Judo

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  3. Evil Solvalou is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/11/2009 6:21am


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    Ah crap. It seems my Bullshido Search Function-jutsu needs work. Thanks bitchslapper.

    My first Trollshidoed thread in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1...
  4. 1point2 is offline
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    Posted On:
    8/11/2009 7:59am

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    I think that one of the points being made in the original thread, perhaps by DerAus, was that TKD being an alive, full-contact combat sport did not mean that it satisfied these requirements:

    Quote Originally Posted by the OP in this thread
    To get to the point; does this mean that for the average person who isn't quite cut out for the better styles like Boxing and Judo and who wants some rudimentary fighting skills, fitness and competition, pussies like myself for example, that TKD could provide a reasonable compromise?
    Why? I would argue that the "rudimentary fighting skills" part would fail totally. No, not a little. No, not a bunch. Totally.

    Holding your hands at your sides, bouncing, standing sideways, and kicking each other in the chest and head (with that ridiculous chest protector, to boot) does not teach, in my opinion, any street-valid rudimentary fighting skills. It will give you fitness, competition, and some experience with things that correspond to fighting (getting hit, being knocked down, kicking and kicking hard) but "rudimentary fighting skill" would be things like a street-useful guard, punching, head-punching, takedowns and takedown defense, grappling, leg kicking, and maybe a smidgen of above-the-waist kicking.
    What a disgrace it is for a man to grow old without ever seeing the beauty and strength of which his body is capable. -Xenophon's Socrates
  5. Evil Solvalou is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/11/2009 8:09am


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    Quote Originally Posted by 1point2 View Post
    I think that one of the points being made in the original thread, perhaps by DerAus, was that TKD being an alive, full-contact combat sport did not mean that it satisfied these requirements:



    Why? I would argue that the "rudimentary fighting skills" part would fail totally. No, not a little. No, not a bunch. Totally.

    Holding your hands at your sides, bouncing, standing sideways, and kicking each other in the chest and head (with that ridiculous chest protector, to boot) does not teach, in my opinion, any street-valid rudimentary fighting skills. It will give you fitness, competition, and some experience with things that correspond to fighting (getting hit, being knocked down, kicking and kicking hard) but "rudimentary fighting skill" would be things like a street-useful guard, punching, head-punching, takedowns and takedown defense, grappling, leg kicking, and maybe a smidgen of above-the-waist kicking.
    That's the impression I got from that thread too. The consensus, at least as far as I interpreted it, seemed to be that while TKD can be defined as full contact and alive, the rules have abstracted the fighting techniques and strategies to the point that they're no longer useful outside the confines of their competitions.

    In other words; overspecialisation to TKD rules has killed off the practical fighting applications.
  6. CMHenry is offline

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    Posted On:
    8/19/2009 11:23pm

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     Style: TKD/JKD

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    I'll add my 2 cents worth. I tried to play around in the WTF very briefly and hated the body armour. You are in an unrealistic fight when yor body shots can't scare the crap out of your opponent. Even in the old style point karate tournaments that I fought in back in the 60's and 70's we beat the hell out of each other and inflicted pain for the psychological value and not just for the one we happened to be fighting at the moment but to intimidate who I'd be fighting next.
    It pissed me off that people would wade through stuff wearing the body protection that would have made them soil themselves without it. Wearing that crap doesn' allow you to have a decent "on guard" position and your arms are unable to do much besides hang down.
  7. TheWanderingTaoist is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/25/2009 12:28am


     Style: TKD Hapkido Judo Tai Chi

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    Quote Originally Posted by CMHenry View Post
    Wearing that crap doesn' allow you to have a decent "on guard" position and your arms are unable to do much besides hang down.
    I agree with you on most points. However one reason fighters can't move is because people have a tendency to wear hogus that are too large for them.
  8. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/25/2009 12:47am

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     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

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    And wear them too tight.
  9. Conde Koma is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/25/2009 1:04am

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     Style: Judo,MT,Boxing,BJJ

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    I think Ramsey Dewey said it best:

    TKD will teach you how to kick, how to kick well, and how to kick well against someone kicking back at you.

    I don't think it'll teach you much more than that, but if that's what you're looking for, it could help.
  10. MaverickZ is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/25/2009 9:21am

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    Quote Originally Posted by Conde Koma View Post
    I think Ramsey Dewey said it best:

    TKD will teach you how to kick, how to kick well, and how to kick well against someone kicking back at you.

    I don't think it'll teach you much more than that, but if that's what you're looking for, it could help.
    That is a wrong statement.

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