reverse grip sword

**nightowl** · Posted On: 12/18/2009 4:25am

Originally Posted by Money

I didn't live in the 1700s, so I won't speculate on the way they trained. If it were me, I would want to simulate a real fight as much a possible before getting in a real fight. Sure using a wooden weapon with a training partner could be risky, but it's less risky than going up against someone who is trying to kill you with a real one. Just like if I were going off to war in this day in age, I would not only want to know how to shoot accurately, but I would also do things like airsoft or paintball to tune my skills before someone is shooting at me with an assault rifle.

It is true that for a long time most aliveness came solely from duels- which even if fought with training swords could cause serious injury. However updates in training gear such as padding on training weapons helped to at least increase the intensity of waza training in the dojo, and by the end of the Edo period styles of kenjutsu such as Shinkageryu, itto ryu (various), etc were known for practicing with shinai in sparring matches. This type of training (sometimes called shinai uchikomi keiko) was the forerunner of today's kendo shiai.

Unfortunately what happened overtime was that virtually all shinai sparring (a tool initially created for kenjutsu) got moved over to kendo, and even the kenjutsu styles which sparred started sticking to just forms . Thus today (including in Japan) you have a split between learning proper distance and timing versus good cutting and real sword handling. I've seen iaido taught alongside kendo a lot which helps rectify the problem, but for someone like me who doesn't have time to do both kendo AND kenjutsu it is somewhat of a bummer.

(that's the story I'm sticking to at least- any more knowledgeable kenjutsu guys please add/correct as you see fit)

**money** · Posted On: 12/18/2009 8:37am

Originally Posted by nightowl

It is true that for a long time most aliveness came solely from duels- which even if fought with training swords could cause serious injury. However updates in training gear such as padding on training weapons helped to at least increase the intensity of waza training in the dojo, and by the end of the Edo period styles of kenjutsu such as Shinkageryu, itto ryu (various), etc were known for practicing with shinai in sparring matches. This type of training (sometimes called shinai uchikomi keiko) was the forerunner of today's kendo shiai.

Unfortunately what happened overtime was that virtually all shinai sparring (a tool initially created for kenjutsu) got moved over to kendo, and even the kenjutsu styles which sparred started sticking to just forms . Thus today (including in Japan) you have a split between learning proper distance and timing versus good cutting and real sword handling. I've seen iaido taught alongside kendo a lot which helps rectify the problem, but for someone like me who doesn't have time to do both kendo AND kenjutsu it is somewhat of a bummer.

(that's the story I'm sticking to at least- any more knowledgeable kenjutsu guys please add/correct as you see fit)

Cool, where can I see the source of this info? I would like to read more.

**nightowl** · Posted On: 12/18/2009 4:49pm

Guttmann, Allen and Thompson Lee. Japanese Sports: a History. University of Hawaii Press, 2001.

Kenji, Tomiki. “Martial Arts” Kodansha Encyclopedia of Japan.
Vol. 5. Tokyo: Kodansha Ltd, 1983.

田中、守。武道を知る。

Ozawa, Hiroshi. Kendo: The Definitive Guide.
Japan: Kodansha International Ltd, 1997

入江、康平。武道文化の探求
日本：Fumaido, 2003

**NeilG** · Posted On: 12/19/2009 3:45pm

Originally Posted by nightowl

Thus today (including in Japan) you have a split between learning proper distance and timing versus good cutting and real sword handling.

What makes you think kata doesn't teach distance and timing? The only lack kata has is in dealing with the more unpredictable parts of sparring, but koryu compensate for that by training kata a good deal more dynamically than most are used to.

***DerAuslander*** · Posted On: 12/19/2009 4:16pm

Kata, even in the koryu mindset, can only minimally teach distance and timing, because it is artificial set. It does not teach distance and timing as effectively as alive drilling.

**nightowl** · Posted On: 12/19/2009 7:31pm

Originally Posted by NeilG

What makes you think kata doesn't teach distance and timing? The only lack kata has is in dealing with the more unpredictable parts of sparring, but koryu compensate for that by training kata a good deal more dynamically than most are used to.

I will readily agree that at high levels koryu two-man kata are better than many of the kata that you see in karate/kung fu/etc as far as helping towards a real duel. However as you mentioned sparring is unpredictable- kata are. Learning timing against an actively moving opponent whose attacks are unknown is far more readily achieved in kendo than in Kenjutsu. The old kenjutsuka knew this and invented the shinai, men, etc so that they could make up for what kata lacked.

Now most current kenjutsuka are not intrested in a practical martial art- they train for the preservation and experience of Japanese culture and traditional budo. On the other hand kendo offers an exciting sport that is now beyond being tied to the katana and is an essential part of the Japanese sport scene. Thus you have JSAs split into tradition (koryu) and modern application (the sport context of kendo).