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  1. NeilG is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/13/2009 12:07pm


     Style: Kendo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BloodMagus View Post
    But Kendo, over here - is a joke. Its actually made things worse by encouraging unrealistic behaviour. They're focused so much on traditions and courtesy - they lost sight of whats truly traditional, training hard.
    People make a number of (usually misguided) generalizations about kendo and it's relation to real swordwork, but I draw the line at accusing us of not training hard.

    I've trained in a number of different places, including Australia, and the "traditions and courtesy" don't vary much. Line up and bow at the beginning and end, and bow when switching partners, same as any other Japanese budo. In between the maybe 5 minutes of time in a class occupied by courtesies, there's a lot of sweat. We get people from other budo all the time, and they are all surprised by how physically demanding kendo is.

    According to your profile you're a beginner in "battojutsu". Care to elaborate? It it koryu, or is it some sort of modern eclectic thing? Because from your descriptions, sounds like the latter.
  2. money is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/13/2009 12:45pm

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     Style: BJJ, MT, MMA, CQB

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yes, of all the criticisms I have of Kendo, not training hard is definitely not one of them. While I said I don't think they are an accurate example of true sword fighting, I think if you put a shinken in the hand of an experienced kendoka vs most other sword arts (koryu or gendai), the kendoka is going to win. The reason being, they learn timing, distance, movement and how to deal with a resisting opponent.

    I didn't say totally useless, as a historical re-enactment or artistic expression I think they serve just fine. If the art is handed down by word and teaching, without periodically testing its effectiveness, it can turn into the phone game( where you whisper something in someone's ear, they whisper to the next, etc) The longer it goes, the less it resembles the original because each subsequent teacher has influenced it.

    I didn't live in the 1700s, so I won't speculate on the way they trained. If it were me, I would want to simulate a real fight as much a possible before getting in a real fight. Sure using a wooden weapon with a training partner could be risky, but it's less risky than going up against someone who is trying to kill you with a real one. Just like if I were going off to war in this day in age, I would not only want to know how to shoot accurately, but I would also do things like airsoft or paintball to tune my skills before someone is shooting at me with an assault rifle.

    Using a naginata in Kendo allows the legs as a target, so you can get Kendo sune-ate. You can find them under naginata on e-bogu. Some mma or MT shin guards would probably work just as well.
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  3. BloodMagus is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/14/2009 2:34am


     Style: Battojutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by NeilG View Post
    People make a number of (usually misguided) generalizations about kendo and it's relation to real swordwork, but I draw the line at accusing us of not training hard.
    I did say over here. Not the states. Not japan. You knew my location.

    When there are those turning their backs on an opponent after making a cut as a form of defense, because rules forbid striking an opponent from behind, frankly people are not focussed on training hard. Do you not agree?

    I'm aware of how tiring kendo training is. Its even more tiring when its part of a 4.5 hr training block, in summer without a/c.

    I've been told that things are ALOT different across the ponds. For one, that actually hit over there rather then tap.

    Quote Originally Posted by NeilG View Post
    According to your profile you're a beginner in "battojutsu". Care to elaborate? It it koryu, or is it some sort of modern eclectic thing? Because from your descriptions, sounds like the latter.
    Does it matter what it is - genuinely? I train specifically in JSA, but I'm not koryu. I'm not in the mood for the proverbial politics/sword measuring that is ever so common on forums in relation to JSA. I'll describe it as batto, because its simple and too the point. If you're going to insist - i'll go back to lurking and stick to doing what I love the most : training. I just felt like have a poke around this forum again. Please don't make me regret it.
    Regardless of what I train in, it doesn't prevent my familarity with other styles and the various koryu. I'm perfectly capable of picking up a book, watching documentaries and attending seminars.

    Yup. I'm a beginner, especially compared to you. And Money appears to have a year longer experience in Shinkendo then I have in my school. But rather then close your ears and stick with rhetoric - here me out and consider my conjecture.


    Quote Originally Posted by Money View Post
    I think if you put a shinken in the hand of an experienced kendoka vs most other sword arts (koryu or gendai), the kendoka is going to win. The reason being, they learn timing, distance, movement and how to deal with a resisting opponent.
    I'd say yes and no. Remember, some koryu do encorporate primitive forms of kendo, and practioners often cross train in it. The question is, is the kendoka always going to have the better timing, distance, footwork etc. Its negelect in the setei kata and some forms of iai. But it is a key topic in koryu and some gendai. Paired drills/kata are the examples of the foundations.


    Quote Originally Posted by Money View Post
    If the art is handed down by word and teaching, without periodically testing its effectiveness, it can turn into the phone game( where you whisper something in someone's ear, they whisper to the next, etc) The longer it goes, the less it resembles the original because each subsequent teacher has influenced it.
    Yes. But koryu are regulated and tend to have written materials dating back to their founding. Things undoubtly change, but the curriculum should be controlled - else its not koryu. No doubt some noise pollutes the signal, but its still there. Its just not as pure as intended.

    As for gendai, well the further away from the source then greater the margin of error. You really need to test everything purple monkey dishwasher.

    Quote Originally Posted by Money View Post
    I didn't live in the 1700s, so I won't speculate on the way they trained. If it were me, I would want to simulate a real fight as much a possible before getting in a real fight. Sure using a wooden weapon with a training partner could be risky, but it's less risky than going up against someone who is trying to kill you with a real one. Just like if I were going off to war in this day in age, I would not only want to know how to shoot accurately, but I would also do things like airsoft or paintball to tune my skills before someone is shooting at me with an assault rifle.
    Wait wait wait. You said using a wooden weapon might be risky?
    *might*
    Might I hit you on the head as per shinjokugiri?
    It is risky. Its not a matter of lethality, its a matter of mess. Sword make cut, Bokken make coma. Bokken aren't just a wooden weapon or a training implement - they're weapons in themselves. We all know the story about musashi, but there is another duel that was actually documented. ittosai vs tenzen. No death, but Itto won with a chunk of wood against tenzen's steel. Then tenzen changed his name and took up under itto. He was that impressed.
    Might point being, with the whole rubber knife in the eye thing, we're taking risks often without realising it. Risks that can permanently **** you up.

    Now I will put forward a good, practical reason why they didn't train with live swords back then. You go metal sword to sword, chances are you'll take chunks out of that lovely blade. Especially with on the edge. Kinda gets blunt after a while. Not much use for a duel or a battlefield, and you'll go through a few swords if you keep sharpening them, no?

    So I put to you. The bokken, bokuto, suburi or chunk of wood, what ever you chose to call it, is the airsoft /paintball marker you're speaking of. Because sparring and competition with bokken did take place back then. I've seen a few woodblock prints of such. Nobody's losing an arm and a leg. But they're sure as hell getting broken. And if they train hard - splinters. Plenty of em.

    Quote Originally Posted by Money View Post
    Using a naginata in Kendo allows the legs as a target, so you can get Kendo sune-ate. You can find them under naginata on e-bogu. Some mma or MT shin guards would probably work just as well.
    First problem was your namesake *rubs fingers together*. And by the time one has your namesake, you've probably stopped caring. or the nerves have died off.
    Mind you the target area I was referring to was above the knee. Particularly on the inside where the femoral runs through. Haven't seen pads for that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sempai View Post
    A reverse grip noto is kata fluff and shouldn't be pre-existing criteria for using a technique.
    I'm sure thats what ppl used to say about newaza in judo, and groundfighting 40 years ago - outside of brazil.
    gees, why practice fighting on the ground, no one takes a fight to the ground. I can finish the fight standing up, no one can take me down
    I think we all know how thats ended.
  4. NeilG is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/14/2009 10:07am


     Style: Kendo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BloodMagus View Post
    I did say over here. Not the states. Not japan. You knew my location.

    When there are those turning their backs on an opponent after making a cut as a form of defense, because rules forbid striking an opponent from behind, frankly people are not focussed on training hard. Do you not agree?
    I know your location. I'm friends with a number of Australian kendoka. I met your ladies' team captain just last November, her kendo is up to quite a high standard. I don't understand how you make a generalization about Australian kendo from a couple of guys you've seen making beginners' mistakes.
    I've been told that things are ALOT different across the ponds. For one, that actually hit over there rather then tap.
    It really depends on where you go. Young competitors in Japan are likely "tapping" by your definition. They'd tap you pretty much when and where they wanted, though.
    Does it matter what it is - genuinely? I train specifically in JSA, but I'm not koryu.
    It does, because it tends to be groups like yours that get all snotty about combat efficiency and look down their noses at kendo and FIE fencing because they don't meet their standard for lethality. The real koryu types understand and appreciate kendo for what it is and in fact a lot of them practice kendo in addition to koryu.
  5. money is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/14/2009 12:29pm

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     Style: BJJ, MT, MMA, CQB

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Japanese sword is not a cheap art to practice. You can spend hundreds or even thousands on the uniform, bokutos, iaito, seminars, bogu, shinai etc. Once you're buying live blades then the price really skyrockets. Mats/bamboo for tameshigiri isn't cheap if you're cutting a decent amount. It is by far the most expensive art I've ever practiced even if my class fee was an absolute steal ($35/mo). if you can't afford the hobby you might want to re-prioritize your finances or wait till you can afford it - or else go in with some buddys on some extra protective gear that you can share.

    Between the tare and sune-ate there shouldn't leave a lot of room for a strike, and you could always throw some knee pads into the mix if necessary.

    I don't know about Kendo across the pond, but I know that my kenjutsu teacher (who was no master of Kendo) would smack the **** out of me on a good Men strike. Armor or no armor I definitely felt it. They do kata in Kkendo as well, but it progresses to real sparring, that's where I see the disconnect with the more "traditional" arts.

    Asking about your training isn't a dick-swinging contest, it's a sincere interest to get an idea about your background and what your opinons are coming from.
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  6. Sempai is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/14/2009 3:00pm

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     Style: Toyama, MAC

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BloodMagus View Post
    I'm sure thats what ppl used to say about newaza in judo, and groundfighting 40 years ago - outside of brazil.
    gees, why practice fighting on the ground, no one takes a fight to the ground. I can finish the fight standing up, no one can take me down
    I think we all know how thats ended.
    I wouldn't compare reverse noto to ground-fighting. I'd compare it to the SNL self defense skits where the instructor can't defend an attack unless his opponent attacks him the right way.
  7. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/14/2009 8:20pm

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     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by superninjagod View Post
    Can't argue with that.

    My problem with reverse grip anythings are the Kelly Wordens of the world who produce a whole video about it and employ garbage techniques. Or the Steve Segals who try and spar knife to knife with reverse grip techniques. Most people training knife focus too hard on extreme close quater fighting or mid range fighting with a knife. They do not focus on Long distance fighting (the range where the oppenent is just in range of your knife, not your live hand or kicks punches or grapples). Paul Vunak Released a video called "Advanced Knife fighting Techniques". The funny thing was is that all the techniques were very simple. But it is considered the bible of knife fighting and I recommend everyone interested in knife to watch it.
    As someone working on his certification under Vunak, I'd like to take the time to tell you to shut the **** up.

    Have a nice day.:new_olymp
  8. evilstan is offline

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    Posted On:
    12/14/2009 9:46pm


     Style: Kendo, JJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I am not sure why this thread has become a kendo vs "real" sword fighting debate. Yes kendo is a sport, it is intense and full contact and makes no distinctions between age, weight, or gender. I have even been to team competitions where you could have 4th dans fighting kyu ranks. In kendo people can see experience even if no one is wearing a belt.

    What those that promote "real" sword fighting fail to realise is many kendo schools also teach iaido. All the iai forms I learned I have learned as part of kendo classes. Whenever I cut tameshigiri it was in kendo.
    We know that without a real sword we are just waving a stick around, and we also know from waving sticks around that there are many things you can't do with a real sword. You have a 1/3 chance either you die, he dies, or you both die in a sword fight, and it will happen quickly. Cutting the legs at such a close range leaves your head and neck wide open, it is possible to do but will probably get you killed. There is a reason naginata allows leg strikes and kendo doesn't. If you have never seriously trained kendo you will never understand why the point system is there or how it works.

    in a poor attempt at bringing this back to the topic, you cannot fight with a reverse grip past the initial draw because it is too limiting. In order to win you have to "hide" behind your sword which you can't do in a reverse grip.
    Last edited by evilstan; 12/14/2009 10:02pm at .
  9. Permalost is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/14/2009 11:19pm

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     Style: FMA, dumbek, Indian clubs

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm not a JSA person, but I've done some training with swords and understand a lot of theory that seems pretty consistent worldwide. One of the concepts that is used in European swordplay is that the weapon leads the attack and the body follows it (intuitively, people often lead with the body for a more powerful swing and expose their body to attack). Holding a sword in a reverse grip, cutting motions seem pretty much doomed to lead with the arm, making a quick stop hit to the arm likely (and thrusting seems very awkward- I've seen fencers have point control good enough to hit a quarter sized target from a lunging distance; I don't think a reverse grip allows for such control or extension). The reverse grip doesn't make a lot of sense in terms of its advantage over a forward grip.
  10. Yoj is offline
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    Posted On:
    12/15/2009 7:33am


     Style: Aikijujutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Seriously is this still going? LOLLAGE. Anyway, its found in a handful of techniques in koryu, as 'emergency' techniques, there probably was some usefulness to it a few hundred years ago when you were caught unaware or something. But to think that that it's a valid standard stance is silly, so of course you wont find it in any newer arts that are based on koryu, such as Toyama, they weren't trying to address the needs of someone wearing a sword in everyday life, they were concerned with a sword being a sidearm on a battlefied filled with guns.. Anyone else using it any other fashion is LARPing like the XMA tards.
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